HK 416 carbine got shot down by Army

[bwiese]

I can back that statement up only with what I have been told by friends, and family members who have served in Iraq, Afgahnistan, and Vietnam. My two uncles, who served late in the Vietnam war (1970's) abandoned their m16s in favor of AK47s as did many in their platoons. As for the present conflicts, my friends and cousins have told me that they would prefer something like an AK that had better reach, but that COs were strict about men in the field trading weapons. The point is, these are people close to me, and so I worry about them, and if there is something that can be done to keep them alive, why not do it?

Anecdotal material. And who knows if they're following T&M procedures?

I chat with folks doing serious work in the Sandboxes and most are pretty pleased with M16s. I hear more gripes about stock length (too long, to short) and magazines than I do the rifle.

[JPN6336]

Watch CNN for 10 minutes and anytime you see footage of troops in Iraq, there will be at least one American solider carrying a weapon that is not US general issue.

Funny, when I was there, the only non-US issue weapons I saw were in the hands of government contractors and the Iraqi Army and police that we were training. Aside from that it was M16A4s, M4s, M249s and of course vehicle mounted MK 19s, M2s, M240s....etc....

[Pvt. Cowboy]

I saw video of a Marine clearing a house with an antique Soviet PPSh-41 and thought 'Good choice'. Here's a still of that video:



I put a stick mag through a crusty old Korean War-era Chinese Type 50 clone of the PPSh-41 when I was in SOI and it just flat ripped. The hot cases rained straight down on top of my head a second later. Everyone wanted to fire it.

I'm not saying it proves anything, but there's plenty of pics on the web of US soldiers and Marines using captured ComBloc weapons:

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

I saw video of a Marine clearing a house with an antique Soviet PPSh-41 and thought 'Good choice'. Here's a still of that video:



I put a stick mag through a crusty old Korean War-era Chinese Type 50 clone of the PPSh-41 when I was in SOI and it just flat ripped. The hot cases rained straight down on top of my head a second later. Everyone wanted to fire it.

I'm not saying it proves anything, but there's plenty of pics on the web of US soldiers and Marines using captured ComBloc weapons:

From what I have read on other forums, that series of photos with the PPSH was staged.

[brando]

From what I have read on other forums, that series of photos with the PPSH was staged.

No doubt. While I was over there I had a short AK handy, but in general there was a rule that you couldn't use anything other than your assigned weapon, so it's not like folks were ditching their M16/M4s for AKs like some would have you believe.

[brando]

HK 416 adds some chamber cleanlieness, and costs unknown reliability complication with extra parts, and possibly a *huge* hit in accuracy.

Dude, the short 10.5" HK416 is apparently shooting as well as the 14.5" and is functioning reliably, according to folks downrange. That's huge if you've ever had to deal with a 10.5" AR. They are notorious for having cycling issues.

[Rugerman]

just because the Army shot it down doesn't mean other places like Navy S.E.A.L.s or SOCOM will

[twl]

Dude, the short 10.5" HK416 is apparently shooting as well as the 14.5" and is functioning reliably, according to folks downrange. That's huge if you've ever had to deal with a 10.5" AR. They are notorious for having cycling issues.

Yes, accuracy is not a function of barrel length, and it is entirely possible that a 10.5" could shoot as accurately as a 14.5". However, there will be the attendant loss of velocity(comparatively) and the trajectory drop associated with that. So, different bullet-drop compensation and zero would be required of course.

But, controllability is another matter, and all the reports I'm getting from over there say that the HK416 is a "recoil jackhammer" compared to a normal M4. Not nearly as controllable during rapid fire. Also, the increased "height over barrel" of the 416's optics rail/sight-plane causes exaggerated aiming issues in CQB and for any BDC adjustments for optics calibrated for M4 rail height.

10.5" AR systems are notorious for being more finicky than longer ones, but they can be made to run reliably.

Interestingly, I personally know some Marines who participated in the Battle of Fallujah, kicking doors and room-clearing with their 20" M16A2 rifles.
They all reported zero failures of their weapons during their entire tours of duty. Same DI operating system, just a little bit longer length. Somehow these guys managed to get thru their tours without failures under very heavy battle conditions, in the sandbox.

IMO, the piston operating system is not a "fix" for the M4 rifle, because there is nothing broken. It actually performs better than an HK416 in handling/shooting qualities, and is tough and reliable in battle conditions.

I've also heard the stories of many AK47 rifles being choked-up by the sand there, so sand-clogging issues are not just related to the M4. It's happening to the M240, M249, and all the other weapons there.

There's an agenda being put into place here, and the M4 must be viewed as "broken" before another company(companies) can sell "their fix" for it.

Beware of the "snake-oil".