HK 416 carbine got shot down by Army

[aklover_91]

You might wanna reread the article. There is nothing wrong with the direct gas impingment of the current M16/4 . If anything its more reliable than the gas piston, less moving parts equals less stuff to break.

And it sprays fouling into the action, which is why they need to be cleaned so much too function, but hey.

[brando]

Yup, just about every AR manufacturer is making gas piston uppers including Colt and Bushmaster. Leitner-Wise was one of the first out of the gate after HK, with POF not far behind. I can can't speak for the others, but I used a LW 16" for several stages of a carbine class and was really impressed. HK has serious hang-ups with regards to civilian sales, so don't expect to get your hands on a 416 unless you're a JSOC DA guy or a Fed in DC.

[Aluisious]

It's very tough for an M16/M4 to burn through a basic load of ammo without getting sluggish - and this is specifically from the gas system dumping it's crap into the action.

True, I do find it a tad annoying when my AR gets "sluggish" at the range after 100 rounds or more. In particular I find feeding becomes less reliable.

[bwiese]

Understand that others came out with a piston system to "be different', too.

Colt did that as well with the LE1020 piston carbine.

The LE1020 won't be priced that much differently in large-scale sales from M16s: if it were that worthwhile, Uncle Sugar would sign up and do a scaled introduction.

[bwiese]

And it sprays fouling into the action, which is why they need to be cleaned so much too function, but hey.

They don't need to be cleaned "so much". Once a day and/or significant expenditure of rounds is fine.

An AR15/M16 can be cleaned in ~3+ minutes. If it's really grubby from external environment (dust, etc.), add a couple of minutes.

AKs fail too when dirty and have actually acquired some pretty poor statistics in the sandbox. Lotsa 7.62x39 ammo is very dirty compared to our 5.56 so it kinda balances out...

[brando]

When I was downrange I did a thorough cleaning of my M4 each night. Even without firing a shot all day the conditions in Iraq in both summer (heat/sand) and winter (snow up to your armpits) lead to fouling of one type or another. This cleaning took anywhere between 10 and 30 minutes depending on how many rounds were put through it. A 30 round mag alone can build-up a decent amount of carbon on the bolt. During the day, usually before noon, I'd do a quick spot lube job on the bolt carrier group, but that's about it.

You can keep one up and running fairly consistently with this arrangement, but it's honestly necessary. Without it, your gun will go down in that environment. The 416 is a different story.

[Morales]

It seems like most of the defenders of the AR15 platform are people who have never had to depend on it for their lives. There is no reason why fighting men, in the field should not be armed with the most relyable possible weapon, no matter what the military has to spend to keep them alive. The bottom line is that these are our friends and family members, and it is cost that is preventing them from being given the best equipment possible. Watch CNN for 10 minutes and anytime you see footage of troops in Iraq, there will be at least one American solider carrying a weapon that is not US general issue. Yes, HK are masters of marketing, but that does not change what the men in the field are asking for.

[artherd]

I've shot thousands of rounds through several ARs, all without cleaning. If your parts are to spec and are well worn-in, you should be OK.

In an emergency, I bet I could put 10,000 through with just shooting some CLP into the chamber every now and agian.

It'd be a black muddy mess, but it will still cycle just fine.

HK 416 adds some chamber cleanlieness, and costs unknown reliability complication with extra parts, and possibly a *huge* hit in accuracy.

[Aluisious]

There is no reason why fighting men, in the field should not be armed with the most relyable possible weapon, no matter what the military has to spend to keep them alive.

Sure there's a reason.

Here it is: they're expendible and we just don't care that much.

The underlying problem is worse than direct vs piston.

[hiyabrad]

When can I buy one?

[Technical Ted]

There is no reason why fighting men, in the field should not be armed with the most relyable possible weapon, no matter what the military has to spend to keep them alive.

Well hell. We need robots. Big freakin atomic powered robots with laser eyes and jack hammer arms to pummel the enemy into submission.

Fighting men are inherently frail and inefficient. They require a limited operational environment. They're prone to injury. They require regular feeding, cleaning and rest periods. Not only that, they intermittently void themselves of solid and liquid waste.

Fighting men should be more reliable than their weapons.

Big freaking atomic powered robots I'm telling ya.

[jdberger]

It seems like most of the defenders of the AR15 platform are people who have never had to depend on it for their lives.

That, Sir, is an interesting assumption. Care to back it up?

Or are you casting aspersions - making an ad hominem attack to discredit those who disagree with you?

[Crazed_SS]

The only problem I ever had with my M-16 was due to crappy recycled gov't issue mags. .. Once i got the armory to get me some new mags, I never had any problems.

[twl]

I'd heartily recommend shooting these weapons for extended sessions, with accuracy testing, and handling comparisons, before plunking down any hard-earned cash for one.

Every single comment that I've heard from people who actually shot a 416, was that they were severely disappointed in the performance.
The FN SCAR was a bit better, but still fell short of expectations.
Their AR15/M4 carbines shot alot better and were just as reliable.
In the end, they all told me that they'd stick with their M4 over either of the newcomers.

Compare before you buy!


The list of guns which were "claimed" to be better than the AR15/M16/M4 over 40 years time, is as long as your arm.
None of them ever have been, in the final analysis.



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[Morales]

I can back that statement up only with what I have been told by friends, and family members who have served in Iraq, Afgahnistan, and Vietnam. My two uncles, who served late in the Vietnam war (1970's) abandoned their m16s in favor of AK47s as did many in their platoons. As for the present conflicts, my friends and cousins have told me that they would prefer something like an AK that had better reach, but that COs were strict about men in the field trading weapons. The point is, these are people close to me, and so I worry about them, and if there is something that can be done to keep them alive, why not do it?