"Sub MOA"

[E Pluribus Unum]

Whenever we talk about rifles, MOA always comes up. People are always talking about "sub moa rifles". My question is, how many of you can actually shoot sub moa??

For general purposes, sub MOA is basically better than a 1 inch group for every 100 meters. In my experience, it takes optics to get anywhere near MOA, let alone sub moa. I would say that the average shooter is good for about 3 inches at 100 yards, especially with irons. The simple fact is that most commercially produced firearms shoot better than their owners are capable of anyway.

With optics and plenty of time, I am good for about 1.5 inches at 100 yards. Do we put too much into it, or am I just a bad shot?

[professionalcoyotehunter]

If my breathing is right and I have the right ammo and right conditions I can shoot sub. But it is very difficult because what you have stated. The rifle will out shoot me.

[Peter W Bush]

A lot of users post pictures of their groups here and a good amount of them are less than 1" at 100 yards. As for me, when I go to the rifle range its usually with hunting rifles that are minute-of-heart.

[johnrunner89]

with good ammo and my Tikka T3 Varmint I can shoot sub moa.

[reidnez]

3" at 100 yards is plenty good for most purposes. 1.5" is excellent. An accurate gun is an interesting gun, yes, but I think sometimes we get tunnel vision when talking about marksmanship and lose sight of utility. What is it you want to to do with the rifle, and are you and the rifle adequate for that purpose? That's all you need to ask yourself.

[Sheepdog1968]

From what I see at the range, the majority of people can't shot 1 MOA let along sub-moa. There are those who can and do enjoy the challenge but they are in the minority. can normally do is 2" w good bolt rifle and good optics at 100 yards. With iron sights the best I can do is 1" at 25 yards though it opens up some if I try it at 100 yards. Pistols I normally shoot 2" or less groups at 7 yards. I mostly am striving for 4" groups irrespective of distance as that's a good size group for self defense and hunting application.

Having said that, there is an awesome inexpensive rifle marksmanship two day class u can take for around 80 dollars. Google Appleseed Project. I went to two of them last year and am signed up for one this April. They are offered all over the USA and are typically within a 3 hour drive of most people. Money well spent if u want to shoot better.

[xrMike]

In my experience, it takes optics to get anywhere near MOA, let alone sub moa. I would say that the average shooter is good for about 3 inches at 100 yards, especially with irons.

With optics and plenty of time, I am good for about 1.5 inches at 100 yards. Do we put too much into it, or am I just a bad shot?

10 rounds, irons, .766 MOA



10 rounds, irons, .700 MOA



These are the 2 best bulls I've ever shot (so far). To be honest though, on average I usually shoot 1 to 1.5 MOA with irons from the bench. I don't own a decent scope yet, or even a rifle to put it on (my AR has a carry handle).

So yeah, it can be done. I find that my eyes are the deciding factor on any given day. Some days they are really sharp, some not so.

[HK Dave]

I've had people miss so bad they hit MY targets...

I personally think... sub MOA is rare for a shooter... i'd say the majority of people at ranges can't shoot sub MOA and wont ever do it either.

I'm willing to bet that for the majority of shooters, their rifles are way better than them... me included.

[Jicko]

Whenever we talk about rifles, MOA always comes up. People are always talking about "sub moa rifles". My question is, how many of you can actually shoot sub moa??

I can. :-)

And many others can, with a good enough rifle. Visit www.thetprc.com KYL, baby.... KYL!

Not hard at all with a custom rifle, custom or match graded ammo, NF/USO/Premier/SB.... the limit IS the rifle.... I just "click" the trigger....

[X-NewYawker]

It's optics, ammo and breathing
With optics and 165 grain Federal 308 match I can shoot sub MOA five shot groups in a bolt gun all day. My friend Richard has a 22PPC Shilen bolt gun that shoot 1/8 MOA groups at 100 yards.



I assume that a .22 rifle that shoots a half inch group at 50 yards is also shooting MOA. All my Volquartsens and custom 10-22s will do better than that with ELEY Match and TENEX ammo.

[JagerTroop]

3" at 100 yards is plenty good for most purposes. 1.5" is excellent. An accurate gun is an interesting gun, yes, but I think sometimes we get tunnel vision when talking about marksmanship and lose sight of utility. What is it you want to to do with the rifle, and are you and the rifle adequate for that purpose? That's all you need to ask yourself.

Well said.

[mif_slim]

OH come in guys!! Everyone on the net can shoot sub-moa!! All they gotta do is say " can shoot sub-moa 30 shot at 100 yards."

like arbarrl said, many people mistaken the 50 yard line with the 100 yard. I'm sure at 50 yards, people with scope and good ammo can shoot sub-moa all day at a 100 yard NRA target put at 50 yards.

In real life, most guys next to me get 4" with iron and 2" with scopes.

[Grassninja]

I think the reason weapon accuracy is so emphasized here is because most folks do most, if not all, of their shooting on controlled fire ranges. As such, the only thing you really can shoot for is accurate groups, usually off a bench. If this style of shooting is the primary means of sending off rounds, it is only natural for people to want an accurate rifle, regardless of his/her own capabilities.

I personally don't hold much of a candle to three round groups. Five or ten is more my idea of a sufficient amount of rounds to qualify as a group. Based on the amount of "which rifle is better" threads, and the responses often devolving into an accuracy to cost ratio debate, I do feel there is an overemphasis on weapon accuracy.

[ar15barrels]

Whenever we talk about rifles, MOA always comes up. People are always talking about "sub moa rifles". My question is, how many of you can actually shoot sub moa??

I can.

These are my 243 "coldbore" groups.
That's the first shot of the day from a cold barrel followed up by 4 more to check for a zero shift.
These are not "picked over" or "lucky" groups.
These are the first group of each day over 3 different days.



Here is 3 shots at 600yds that are just over 1".
This is during competition so there's also a 500yd group, but it's more like 2.5" or so...



Here's 10 rounds of Lapua Standard+ 22 match ammo at 88yds.
It's JUST over 1 moa, but if I discounted the first round flyer, it's more like 5/8 moa.

[Peter W Bush]

MOA doesnt change by distance. Usually its interpreted as 1" @ 100 yards. At 50 yards, its just over .5", 200 yards, just a bit over 2"

So if youre shooting sub-moa @ 50 yards, thats still sub-moa.