Does a “Fin” make an AR Featureless?

[kcheung2]

There seems to be a rash of Calguns old-timers who seem to have been knocked on their head and forgot things they learned a decade ago.

[ysr_racer]

Yup, clearly can't put any of the web of your hand below the top of the trigger...

That's just what I'd expect a narc to say

[ar15barrels]

There seems to be a rash of Calguns old-timers who seem to have been knocked on their head and forgot things they learned a decade ago.

[G-forceJunkie]

That's just what I'd expect a narc to say

[nedgun]

No.

A fin only eliminates a pistol grip.
You have to get rid of ALL the "features" before it's featureless.
See how easy that is?
It's right there in the name.
Featureless can not have any features.

No flash suppressor.
No collapsible stock.

Here is the exact ford of the law listing the features:

So if I have a fixed magazine with 10 rnds I can have a grenade launcher?

[ARDude]

So if I have a fixed magazine with 10 rnds I can have a grenade launcher?

Where would you get grenades for it?

[nedgun]

Where would you get grenades for it?

Ha! If you build it they will come?? Obviously my question was in jest, but it would be a bit of a wow factor at the range.

[hermosabeach]

Flow Chart helps a lot

[ARDude]

Ha! If you build it they will come?? Obviously my question was in jest, but it would be a bit of a wow factor at the range.

Shoot a Nerf grenade out of it!

[G-forceJunkie]

Yes, but they are usually also flash hiders. The point of this part of the law is many military rifles, the flash supressor is designed to also shoot rifle grenades. The FAL, Yugo SKS, etc. It was just another way to get rid of evil muzzle devices. Its not talking about a M203 under your AR.

This is a grenade launcher: https://www.arizonaresponsesystems.c...g-58-standard/

So if I have a fixed magazine with 10 rnds I can have a grenade launcher?

[67Cuda]

So if an AK has a grenade launcher, it can never be featureless with just a fin grip?

It can (almost) never be legal in any configuration in CA, because a grenade launcher is also a prohibited destructive device. Unless you had the proper (effectively unobtanium for most) permits, it is a no-go.

However, a flare launcher is not a grenade launcher - if you are asking about a faux M203 or something. A fixed mag AK could have a flare launcher, but otherwise no it could not be featureless.

So if someone bought an AK that had a grenade launcher legally in CA from a gun store, it's now illegal? How about a Compmag for fixed magazine?

Does this AK have a grenade launcher or a flare launcher?

[Brush Guard]

Against ugly gold appointments.

[Librarian]

So if someone bought an AK that had a grenade launcher legally in CA from a gun store, it's now illegal?

How about a Compmag for fixed magazine?

Does this AK have a grenade launcher or a flare launcher?

A grenade launcher has been a destructive device for CA for many years - it's unlikely one sold in CA in this century has a grenade launcher, as selling is a felony - https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...r=1.&article=1 and possessing is at least a 'public offense' and can be a felony. (Looks like 'importing' is not a separate crime, but it does lead to 'possession', so not off the hook bringing it into CA from another state.)

16460.

(a) As used in Sections 16510, 16520, and 16780, and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 18710) of Division 5 of Title 2, “destructive device” includes any of the following weapons:

...

(2) Any bomb, grenade, explosive missile, or similar device or any launching device therefor.

As far as grenade vs flare, either one of those is a 'feature' to make a semiautomatic rifle an 'assault weapon'.

[xrMike]

Yes, No, No

QUESTION #1:
So if the rifle HAD a bullet button on it BEFORE the recent registration period, and I made it completely featureless, I can now remove that bullet button and replace it with the stock magazine release? Please, YES or NO only first, then details if necessary. Thanks.

QUESTION #2:
I have several rifles with bullet buttons that I registered during that period. Now that they are registered, can I ALSO remove the bullet buttons on those rifles and replace them with standard/stock magazine releases, since they are technically "assault weapons" now? Again, YES or NO first. Then a discussion if you want.

Question #2 is what I'm most interested in because I've seen some folks here who say the answer is definitely "NO". But there ARE others, including a long-time CGN member, notorious grammar and spelling Nazi, and California lawyer specializing in gun laws who says "YES" (you can replace the bullet button with standard magazine release), and he says he's done it on ALL his registered guns and has no fear of ever being arrested for doing it...

At least that's what I think he said. I can go back and find the thread and post a link to it here, if necessary.

ETA:

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1522040

Here's the thread I was talking about... Ohsmily is the lawyer and notorious grammar and spelling Nazi in question... Read his opinions in that thread re: Question #2. I really want to take the BB off my registered rifles. If a a smart, somewhat successful, and good-spelling, well-grammared lawyer can do it, why can't I ???

[RickD427]

Please keep in mind IANAL. My replies below are only my opinions as a retired LEO. Osmiley may be a lawyer, but he is not your lawyer. Lawyers and LEOs often have differing perspectives on the same issue and its good to consider both points of view. The ultimate end result is what happens at the end of the court process. The lawyers control that process from the courtroom door to the end. The LEO's control what happens before you reach the courtroom door. It's important to keep that in mind. Although Osmiley and I have jousted with each other in other threads, the jousting normally involved the lack of pristineness in the application of the law, coupled with his pristine analysis of the law. Osmiley is a smart man, and a good lawyer. I actually very much appreciate his pristine analysis of legal points. Much of the fault that I find in the conduct of our legal system is where the law is inexact, or where advocates on one side of a legal issue present the law as being inexact (and noting that the L.A. District Attorney just got fanged by the Superior Court for doing just that).

QUESTION #1:
So if the rifle HAD a bullet button on it BEFORE the recent registration period, and I made it completely featureless, I can now remove that bullet button and replace it with the stock magazine release? Please, YES or NO only first, then details if necessary. Thanks.

I say "YES." If the weapon was never registered as an "Assault Weapon", then you avoid all of the legal nastiness involved in Question Two.

QUESTION #2:
I have several rifles with bullet buttons that I registered during that period. Now that they are registered, can I ALSO remove the bullet buttons on those rifles and replace them with standard/stock magazine releases, since they are technically "assault weapons" now? Again, YES or NO first. Then a discussion if you want.

Question #2 is what I'm most interested in because I've seen some folks here who say the answer is definitely "NO". But there ARE others, including a long-time CGN member, notorious grammar and spelling Nazi, and California lawyer specializing in gun laws who says "YES" (you can replace the bullet button with standard magazine release), and he says he's done it on ALL his registered guns and has no fear of ever being arrested for doing it...

At least that's what I think he said. I can go back and find the thread and post a link to it here, if necessary.

ETA:

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1522040

Here's the thread I was talking about... Ohsmily is the lawyer and notorious grammar and spelling Nazi in question... Read his opinions in that thread re: Question #2. I really want to take the BB off my registered rifles. If a a smart, somewhat successful, and good-spelling, well-grammared lawyer can do it, why can't I ???

I say "MAYBE" (I know that you requested a "YES" or "NO", but Dr. Stratton has suggested that I'm not so good at following directions, and have a slight tendency to rebel against authority figures).

Please check out this thread where we recently covered the pretty much the same question: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1797988

From a "Pristine Legal Point of View", the answer is "YES" (but see the qualification below) The key reason for this is that there are only three definitions of an "Assault Weapon": 1) "Evil by Name" per Penal Code section 30510(a),(b), and (c); 2) "Evil Cuz the Court Said So" per Penal Code section 30510(d); and "Evil by Feature" per Penal Code section 30515. Please note that there ain't no Penal Code section defining a weapon as an "Assault Weapon" simply because the weapon is registered as such with the California DOJ. Once you make the weapon featureless, it is no longer defined as an "Assault Weapon" under PC 30515. The qualification is that this analysis only applies to "Evil by Feature" Assault Weapons. But if the weapon were an "Evil by Name, or "Evil Cuz the Court Said So" Assault Weapon, there would have been no reason to fit it with a Bullet Button since registration would have been required prior to the Bullet Button being introduced.

From a "Practical Point of View", there is a lot of caution called for. The reason being that the weapon does carry some form of official labeling as an "Assault Weapon", even if that labeling is not legally correct. Keep in mind that the legal standard for an LEO to make an arrest is to have "Probable Cause" that the offense has been committed. Certain knowledge that the offense has been committed is not necessary. Additionally, court have ruled that LEOs are not required to have a perfect and inerrant knowledge of all statutes they may be charged with enforcing. Before we entered the computer age, I once measured the bookcase containing the paper copies of California state laws that deputies were expected to enforce. That statutes took up 14 feet of shelf space. I doubt that anyone could memorize that much stuff and get it 100% correct. The reason for caution is that if an LEO should encounter your weapon in the field, and run the serial number, they would learn that it is an "Assault Weapon" that was registered with a "Bullet Button." DOJ has published their view (untested in court) that the removal of a Bullet Button from such weapons produces a different weapon from the one registered. Put that together and there is "Probable Cause" to believe that there is a violation of Penal Code section 30605 and that means a felony trip to jail. The charge (IMHO) would be easily defeated by showing that the weapon was not configured as an "Assault Weapon" at the time of the arrest, but you don't the opportunity to make that showing until the Preliminary Hearing.