Precision shooting question

[sigstroker]

0.10 MOA - 0.20 MOA with factory Hornady 6.5CM, 140gr. ELD-M out of a barreled action (Defiance/Bartlein). Not an assembly line rifle by any means, but you can buy one ready to shoot from any number of places. 1/2 MOA from a factory Remington, Ruger, Winchester, whatever... is good for the money. But like I said, I wouldn't call that amazing.

What rifle were you referring to, though? At least then we can talk apples to apples in terms of cost and quality.

Defiance with a Bartlein - 3 grand? Hardly out of the box, unless you count the box the gunsmith puts it in.

My friend had a budget Remington, I can't remember the number. 788 maybe? It was like that, made in the 60's or 70's.

[1859sharps]

That's a strange argument ...

While apparently we are in agreement, you missed the point of why I posted what I did.

When we are guiding a new shooter, and the conversation starts including theoretical capabilities of a rifle/ammo/shooter combo, what we find "impressive" (which is part subjective and part context driven) or not, we should also be clear the context and how to understand that context to keep expectations realistic.

Part of that is helping them understand is distinguishing the "administrative" work we do at the bench to see what a particular rifle / ammo combo can potentially do and what to expect in "real world". Which is simply all activities with a rifle away from the bench. Hunting, practicing, competing etc but without the aid of the bench are all real-world application of the rifle.

[smoothy8500]

While apparently we are in agreement, you missed the point of why I posted what I did.

Which is simply all activities with a rifle away from the bench.

I understood what you meant.

[Ronin6]

I started with .223 / Rem. 700 Police and Reloading at the same time. Now I shoot & reload over a dozen calibers - all scoped Target / Snipers ( collect Sniper Rifles ). There is no wrong way, you learn with every shot & every reload. Enjoy & Shoot! It?s also a Field with big egos.

[JohnnyMtn]

OP my response is not about gear. Instead, it is about fundamentals. If you have never been to a Project Appleseed shoot I would recommend that you attend one of their 2-day shoots. They are ridiculously cheap compared to other pro shooting classes and their teaching is actually top notch. You wont learn the actual techniques of high precision shooting as done by those shooting 500-1000 yards. But you will learn the fundamentals of proper rifle marksmanship and that will give you a solid foundation for any precision shooting that you then get into.

Their standard shoot is done at 25m but the fundamentals that you learn translate out to any distance.

https://appleseedinfo.org/schedulemap/

[ShaunBrady]

I started with .223 / Rem. 700 Police and Reloading at the same time. Now I shoot & reload over a dozen calibers - all scoped Target / Snipers

This is probably the most well worn successful path. Maybe add light gunsmithing to the list. Learning how to mount a scope and change a stock comes in handy. If you can learn to bed an action, it'll cut out a few accuracy mysteries.

Starting out, it's tough to know exactly which direction it'll go. There are endless chicken or egg loops.

Buy the 223 Varmint/Police Special/Tactical and get started. It's likely it won't be the last gun you purchase.

Disposable income is different things to different people. Buy something you can afford and won't cry over honest wear with. The cheapest are seldom the best value. Nice stuff is fun but may not perform that much better than mid range equipment and it can easily turn out to not really suited for the direction your tastes develop.

[Ronin6]

This is probably the most well worn successful path. Maybe add light gunsmithing to the list. Learning how to mount a scope and change a stock comes in handy. If you can learn to bed an action, it'll cut out a few accuracy mysteries.

Starting out, it's tough to know exactly which direction it'll go. There are endless chicken or egg loops.

Buy the 223 Varmint/Police Special/Tactical and get started. It's likely it won't be the last gun you purchase.

Disposable income is different things to different people. Buy something you can afford and won't cry over honest wear with. The cheapest are seldom the best value. Nice stuff is fun but may not perform that much better than mid range equipment and it can easily turn out to not really suited for the direction your tastes develop.

It?s addicting as it is challenging, I learned a lot from the veterans at the range. Watching what they do, what they shoot, some reloading right there on the bench, ???.. plus YouTube is your friend Document your progress, save marked up targets, the more you shoot the better you get. Accuracy is a perishable skill.

[ShaunBrady]

Is the 6.5 cartridge inherently more accurate than .223? or is it used by more accurate/ serious shooters generally and has a better reputation on that basis.

Everything else being equal, the 223 will be more accurate because it moves less while the bullet is in the barrel. Clamping the gun down doesn't help unless you're really bad. The gun needs to move while the bullet is traveling down the barrel. This isn't just free recoil style shooting. Whatever style you're using, the idea is to make that movement as close to the same every time as you can, not prevent it.

Litz has an equation developed from a wide variety of guns that correlates weight and muzzle energy to accuracy. It's not a guarantee or anything near the last word, but it's a good starting point for a new shooter selecting a rifle.

Bench Rest and just about every other shooting sport have weight limits for a reason. Current PRS practice is to use 20-25# guns with minimalist 6mm cartridges. For a first rifle, you'll need to select from the menu. With varmint/police/tactical rifles, that'll be 223/5.56, 6CM, 6.5CM, and 308. Maybe 6 ARC or 6.5 Grendel.

If the 6.5CM rifle was heavier by enough that the muzzle energy to weight ratio was about the same, I'd go with the 6.5CM. It's straight forward, but not necessarily easy, to produce hand loads that perform better and more consistently than commercial match ammo with 223. It might just be me, but the level past that just seems harder with 223 than it did with 6.5CM.

After weight, tracking is the next thing to look at. If the forend and bottom of the buttstock are parallel with the bore, the gun won't need as much help from you to move consistently because it'll tend to move straight back. The closer where you contact the recoil pad is to the bore, the less tendency there will be for the muzzle to rotate up under recoil. If the gun has an adjustable cheekpad, raising the scope makes raising the recoil pad more possible. The lighter bench rest classes have rules that require a slope on the bottom rear of the stock. I think they're there to preserve the resemblance to typical rifles at the time the rules were developed. Those rules are certainly not there because having a minimum slope is an advantage.

This is what some of the adjustments in a chassis are about. They also make hanging weight kits on them possible. They throw the detachable magazine feature in for free. Sort of.

If you start with some sort of economy plastic stock, Boyd's stocks are relatively inexpensive upgrades. In addition to being beer goggles for ugly guns, they work pretty well for accuracy if they're pilar and glass bedded. Their weight is an advantage.

[ShaunBrady]

I have mixed feelings about YouTube. There is good information there but the signal to noise ratio has been deteriorating for decades.

Interacting with other shooters in the real world is essential. If you can find a mentor, you'll be way ahead of the game.

[1859sharps]

...weight is an advantage....

Weight only masks the areas we need to improve, doesn't make the rifle more accurate.

It takes more mastery of the fundamentals to be successful with a light rifle than with a heavy rifle.

What makes for "light" and "heavy" is relative to the application. But it holds true for any.

[eighteenninetytwo]

awesome information in this thread thank you all.

[dozer wright]

I actually just took a private long distance shooting lesson.
One of the most important things the Gentleman taught me was needing a level on the rifle or scope. As a bullet dosnt fly in a laser straight line it arches and at distance. Of 1000yards being a quarter bubble out can make your shot wayyyy off target. Leftys tend to tilt the rifle left and Rightys to tilt the rifle right. As you look through the scope with your right eye you look at the level with your left. Within 3 hours of Most of it dry fire, fired a total of 12 rounds in 6 hours , I was hitting 9 inch target at 900 yards. Which was 5 of the total rounds.
He had me dry fire alot loose grip. And he said live in the level alot. He said that I was one of the quickest to make that distance .

On a separate Note Mid way has Trijicon Tenmile scopes on Clearence sale.

[divingin]

Bench Rest and just about every other shooting sport have weight limits for a reason. Current PRS practice is to use 20-25# guns with minimalist 6mm cartridges.

That heavy?

The limits in Benchrest are 10.5# for Sporter and Light Varmint, 13.5# for Heavy Varmint, and no limit (duh) for Unlimited.

My rifle (full custom) falls into unlimited class (or would be, if I shot competition), as it comes in at about 19 lbs or so (most of that is barrel.)

Weight only masks the areas we need to improve, doesn't make the rifle more accurate.

Sure, in the same way that a better trigger, a better fitting stock, or better glass doesn't improve accuracy; it all just makes it easier to shoot accurately.

I've said pretty much the same thing before about Olympic pistols: They're not inherently more accurate than any other quality handgun; you pay for the things that make them easier to shoot consistently within the rules of the game.


For the OP, don't think that vision problems will relegate you to using a scope. If you get a chance, take a look through a rifle fitted with a rear peep and front globe sight. You'd be surprised at how much it sharpens things up. Then again, scopes are quick and easy as well.

[1859sharps]

Sure, in the same way that a better trigger, a better fitting stock, or better glass doesn't improve accuracy; it all just makes it easier to shoot accurately.

Yes and no. It really does depend on the feature is. I was specifically referring to weight.

A quality scope doesn't actually mask lack of mastery of fundamentals. It might actually expose them while at the same time making it easier to take the shot IF you improve your fundamentals. Same for trigger, stock etc.

A "heavier" rifle does make it easier, but it does so by masking our weaknesses, not exposing them and forcing us to improve.

[ShaunBrady]

That heavy?

The limits in Benchrest are 10.5# for Sporter and Light Varmint, 13.5# for Heavy Varmint, and no limit (duh) for Unlimited.

My rifle (full custom) falls into unlimited class (or would be, if I shot competition), as it comes in at about 19 lbs or so (most of that is barrel.)

A year or two ago, I was comparing notes with a shooting buddy I met at one of Lynn's matches. He competes at a high enough level in PRS that he has appeared in his sponsors promotional materials. His 6 Dasher gun weighed a pound or two more than my 33XC which was over 20#. My gun has 6" more barrel. He had weight kits in the chassis.

Those Bench Rest weight limits are part of what sets the challenge for that game. Inertia is like gravity. It's real. Ignore it at your peril.

For the PRS guys, that weight and where they put the gun's center of gravity also reduces the zero shift that comes with altering the shooting position and gun support.

Sure, in the same way that a better trigger, a better fitting stock, or better glass doesn't improve accuracy; it all just makes it easier to shoot accurately.

Et tu?

If the OP buys a Ruger American Ranch Rifle and shoots it out of the box and then in a weighted up chassis, it'll certainly shoot smaller groups. Let's assume the bedding is fine for both stocks, he gets a middle of the road barrel and uses match ammo.

First because it'll move less while the bullet is in the barrel as a result of the raw weight. Second because the support he provides with his shoulder and cheek will be better aligned, more consistent, and provide a better NPA.

It can be argued that the weight doesn't make the shooter any more skilled but saying the gun isn't more accurate and precise is ideology. No, the barrel and ammunition are not any more precise, but more metal will be landing on smaller targets. There is no level of skill where that will stop happening.

I'm assuming the OP is going to start by showing up on the 100 yard line of a public range and shooting off a bench using a front rest of some sort and rear bag.

If the OP is going to show up at some sort of Quigly shoot with a falling block action and black powder cartridge, my bad.