Precision shooting question

[eighteenninetytwo]

Say I wanted to learn about precision and accurate shooting, using a scope (eyes not good enough for irons much longer), but I'm also clear headed and practical enough to realize that I'll never really have the time to put into learning to shoot beyond 300 yards; I'm assuming that a .223 Bolt rifle with quality ammunition is the most sensible option - something like a Remington 700? Any other thoughts on out of the box solutions?

[Gunsrruss]

Never go cheap

Spend the extra money and cry once. It pays for it's self in the long run. I'm kind of annal when it comes to accuracy. So, I have 5 Rem. 700's in various calibers. There all in the $4500 range . I reload my own and put high dollar scopes and barrels on them. Nightforce 5 X 22 X 56 and Lothar Walther barrels. Use no second bullets or PPU ammo. Try to make sure you have a good trigger also....... Good luck. If I can help you, give me a shout.

[baih777]

Price quality ammo.
6.5 creedmoor would be a better choice.
If you plan on shooting 223 surplus ammo. Not that accurate.
Target 223 sorta pricey.

[1859sharps]

How to guide you is all about your budget.

.223 is an excellent choice for what you are indicating you want to do. It will get you out past 300 yards if you really want to. with 80 plus gr bullets, you can even play at the 1000 yard line.

The Remington of course has a lot of aftermarket support, but other options are available. I mention that only because I cannot personally tell you anything about the quality coming from Remarms these days. AR15barrles is likely to have some experience with current production and I would trust his assessment over random internet rumors, if he chimes in.

Are you open to other options? For example, the Tikka Super varmint. I have read some good things about it.

There is also the custom path if your budget allows.

If you do not reload, quality factory ammunition will cover you just fine. But if you do reload you likely can do better particularly if you start to work past 300 yards.

My advice. Don't tunnel vision in on Remington just yet. See what other options are out there for "off the shelf factory" rifles.

Set a budget...unless money is not an issue for you.

If you truly think you won't get past 300 yards, then your scope will not need to be as expensive and high end. The Vortex PST Viper line for example will take care of you just fine.

Don't think you have to buy high end to start. Sure, buy once, cry once can be cost effective in some cases. BUT... if you are not yet able to shoot up to the abilities of your equipment yet, and if you will never shoot the distances the equipment is optimized for, it is wasted money that could go to ammunition and/or training to gain/refine your skills.

If you can't group 10 shots in 2 inches at a hundred with a quality middle tier rifle, why waste money on theoretical accuracy you can't yet access? Rifles will always shoot better than us even without spending top tier. That might not sound impressive, but there are a lot of top tier competitors that dream of shooting 1 moa consistently (which doesn't sound impressive at face value either), on demand. Not talking the lucky cherry picked one off, but consistent, on demand performance.

So, until you are keeping all 10 shots within 2 MOA at 100 you likely have lots of room to grow with a mid-tier rifle and scope. Which will still set you back better part or slightly more than $2000 at least.

summary...

for what you indicate, 223 is a great choice. many people have a 223 trainer rifle similar or identical to their competition rifle. If they can afford it

Set a budget. for mid-tier rifles, figure at least 1k to 1.5 k, but you might be able to find sales and such to save money and figure at least 1k for scope. If you truly, truly do not think you will ever get to shooting past 300, then costs go down some.

Check out other rifle option before settling on a Remington. Get some feed back on current quality. But be sure it is a reputable source.

Another option is to buy a used, good condition rifle, and rebuild it into what you want. likely will cost about the same as any mid tier factory rifle in the end.

[deckhandmike]

Totally start with a .223 REM 700. Even IF you outgrow that gun, which you probably won’t it’s a amazing practical bolt gun to have lying around and a great host for future builds. And you can totally shoot cheaper ammo and plink on steel when you don’t feel like shooting groups with the match stuff.

[eighteenninetytwo]

Good advice thank you. reason i mentione dteh Rem 700 was purely as I had heard they have the most aftermarket support so I was thinking that was a route to upgrade as I went, therefore having more money to spend on ammo initially. One more question: do people always fit a harris bipod or similar for this sort of thing, or do they just rest on sandbags, thus making a bipod superfluous?

[sigstroker]

You don't have to spend on a 700. Weatherby and Howa guarantee 1 moa, probably under $400. For 300 yards and .223 you can probably get by with a cheap Bushnell or $100 hunting scope. Unless you want gnat's arse accuracy, you don't need to dial or hold over. You can sight in so that 300 is point blank.

[eighteenninetytwo]

I am intigured by the possibility of gnats arse accuracy........ Ive always just had milsurps (mostly Enfields of whihc all but a couple have irons) and been happy with minute of German head accuracy at 100/200 yards.

[RandyD]

In your post, you state you want to do precision shooting; this is a never-ending process. Once you start, you will want to increase both your range and accuracy. I am a fan of the Remington 700. I have one accurized by HS Precion and the sample target that they delivered with the rifle was five shots at 100 yards with a group of .3" You can also buy a Remington 700 clone that is already accurized. My favorite clone is the Stiller Predator. Regarding your choice of cartridge, if you are seeking accuracy, I would go with a 6 mm or 6.5 mm cartridge. They will give you better accuracy and range.

[eighteenninetytwo]

Is the 6.5 cartridge inherently more accurate than .223? or is it used by more accurate/ serious shooters generally and has a better reputation on that basis.

[FNGGlock]

6.5 creedmoor is not inherently more accurate than 223, it depends on the rifle, ammo used and most importantly the shooter.

That said the 6.5 has a much better BC for match bullets and will be able to reach out to further distances, and even at 300yds will be less affected by conditions like wind. Thus making it a bit easier to shoot accurately.

It is however quite a bit more expensive to shoot 6.5.

For 300yds and closer a good 223 setup will get the job done, and a great starting point. Also get a good scope for precision shooting at the start. I prefer a scope with a Christmas tree for holdover, etc - makes it easy to adjust for wind and drop if you zero at 100 yds.

What is you expectation for shooting out to 300yds?

[deckhandmike]

Is the 6.5 cartridge inherently more accurate than .223? or is it used by more accurate/ serious shooters generally and has a better reputation on that basis.

There is always a more accurate round. Why stop at 6.5, everyone is loving the 6? Unless you reload or like burning money I?d start cheaply in this hobby. Most fizzle off after they see the time and money involved to go down the rabbit hole. Get past the learning curve and initial mistakes/discovery phase cheap. Once you get into it you will find you gravitate towards certain directions of precision shooting and you can tailor your build for that with some left over money and a better understanding of what you want.

And yes, a lot of these newer rounds are built solely for accuracy. But it’s better to go through the learning curve slowly and fixing your basics before you start blaming the round. I’m still in the rookie camp but a more accurate round will not help me until I learn to do my part every time. I would of wasted a mountain of cash learning on a expensive cartridge.

[1859sharps]

I am intigured by the possibility of gnats arse accuracy........

Then you need to choose between precisions rifle style shooting or bench rest.

While being the most accurate possible is a goal of both, gnats arse accuracy sounds more like wanting smallest group possible. That is benchrest.

Precision is reliably keeping shots within a zone.

[1859sharps]

Is the 6.5 cartridge inherently more accurate than .223? or is it used by more accurate/ serious shooters generally and has a better reputation on that basis.

Yes, no, maybe, depends....

Devil is in the details of your goals AND shooting conditions.

Many people who shoot competitively might use a 6.5 or 6mm in competition. BUT keep a .223 for practicing the fundamentals with lower cost ammo.

You indicated you were thinking 300 yards is the longest you likely will shoot. At that range .223 makes the most sense. Cost and performance wise. It really won't matter 223, 6, 6.5, 7 or even 30 at that distance. .223 will be the lightest recoiling, cheapest, and plenty accurate at 300. You will NOT be handicapped.

The difference in performance between 223, 6mm, 6.5mm, and 7mm does grow at distances further out and MOSTLY have to do with their ability to "handle wind". They are ALL EXCELLENT and ACCURATE choices. BUT some handle wind better than others the further out you shoot.

[ar15barrels]

Is the 6.5 cartridge inherently more accurate than .223? or is it used by more accurate/ serious shooters generally and has a better reputation on that basis.

If you look at the most precise (accuracy and precision are different things) cartridges, they share a shorter and fatter powder column than typical military cartridges like 308/223.


6mm PPC and 6mm BR are the undisputed kings of shortrange and midrange benchrest cartridges.
If there were better cartridges for shooting small groups, benchrest shooters would use them and bencrest shooters are sticking with 6mm PPC and BR to this day.

Here are a bunch of the currently used mid-bore cartridges in the various precision rifle competition circuits:



The 6.5 Creedmoor is much more like one of those benchrest cartridges than it is like a 223.

If you want the best precision possible, go right to a 6mm BR or something closer to that design.