Saco extractor

[sigstroker]

Okay, you know someone is going to ask - paper clip?

[ar15barrels]

Okay, you know someone is going to ask - paper clip?

More here.

[LynnJr]

Diver
Get a Warner full length die that matches your reamer and you will never have another separation.
I am not a fan of Warner Tools business practices after I bought a 300 WSM die from them but there die if properly fit to your reamer is the gold standard of resizing dies.

[buffybuster]

I ran Lapua way too hot for too many loads and over-bumped (turned the micrometer, slightly in error) the last time on about 1000 hand loads.. Prior to that, the internal ring did not show up. I decided to run them rather than toss them out. In that thousand rounds, I had maybe 18-20.. while that is only 2% ish, to me, thats a lot.

I also shot a lot of positional matches and seen others -- it is common enough that I carry a 12gauge brush in my pack. You see enough hand loads shot with people reusing their cases to the end and they show up. Often, it is the extraction that is the final straw.

Yes, every hand-load should be checked with a paper clip, every time, but when your shooting as much as some matches require and have two shooters sometimes we get lazy.. As an example of round count, the SHTC last weekend required about 500 rifle rounds (targets 350-1325) and 120 pistol rounds (targets close). Some matches we might only burn 100-250. But dang it adds up, so the chances of seeing failures is higher just due the to volume. This year I switched to factory ammo, It is NOT as good, but I was becoming a slave to reloading. Truth be told, the factory is good enough in this type of shooting that it is NOT what keeps one out of the top.

If this was me, once I realized the shoulders were bumped too far, I would have reseated to bullets for a light/moderate jam to set headspace and used them only for practice/club matches. I have a FL die dedicated to each chamber, to minimize this possibility.

[diver160651]

If this was me, once I realized the shoulders were bumped too far, I would have reseated to bullets for a light/moderate jam to set headspace and used them only for practice/club matches. I have a FL die dedicated to each chamber, to minimize this possibility.

I understand Lynn's suggestion for future sizing, but I am not sure how reseating would have helped or saved the cases.

Normally shoot for about .001 bump FL using redding bushing dies for connivence.. with different brass. In this case I bumped about .003 on brass that was run very hot for a number of cycles.

FWIW I understand, that .001 target floats a hair if nothing else to measurement error and a tiny bit of various harness even with my Benchmade (edited LOL, Thats my Knife - "Bench-source") annealer.

So, again, I just am not sure how reseating could have saved the brass, or make this good for matches were you have time limits and may need deal with case extraction.

I am not trying to be argumentative, if it at all seem that way please accept my apologies.. (I've been told thats how I come across when I post - it is more a poor skill set that anything else) I truly am interested in learning this one.

This thread has had some assume info from Lynn, AR15, Kendog etc..

Jt

[sigstroker]

Such a small difference causing blown cases, those must be VERY hot.

[diver160651]

Saco extractor

Such a small difference causing blown cases, those must be VERY hot.

It can go fast on old brass

BTW this image below is the one that had the guys on their cans, jump up and l looked at my dumbness and jacked face. 6mm for scale


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[LynnJr]

SigStroker
When brass gets work hardened it will crack on you rather than form to fit the chamber. It doesn't shatter like glass but it also doesn't conform like new brass does.

Diver
Loading the bullets long as you have posted doesn't really help. Lots of shooters doing it but if you bump that shoulder too much the only cure is to create a false shoulder at the neck/shoulder junction and really palming the bolt closed.
I would not attempt it at a match as you really need a tight fit on the false shoulder.
To test the "jam a bullet into the lands" theory you would take a fired case and full length size it without removing the spent primer. You want just for this experiment to over-bump the shoulder a couple thousandths.
Now seat a bullet long and close the bolt on the round.
Measure the overall length.
Put the round back in the gun and dry fire the round.
Remeasure the overall length.
If jamming the bullet will hold the case from moving forward your overall length will stay the same length.
If the firing pin hitting the primer overcomes the necks grasp on the bullet the overall length will be shorter.
Everyone needs to test this for themselves to see what they get.

[buffybuster]

Diver,

If bumping from 0.001" to 0.003" resulted in casehead separation, then that brass was on it's last legs. Jamming the bullets wouldn't have saved them.

If the brass was in good shape and you wanted to salvage what you could, then you could reseat the bullets longer to jam into the lands with good neck tension. Without enough neck tension, the case would move forward during the FP strike. It's not ideal but and option. The next better step would be to create a false shoulder but that's more steps. Lesson learned.

[sigstroker]

It can go fast on old brass

Wow, that one on the right got split clean in half.

[diver160651]

Saco extractor

Diver,

If bumping from 0.001" to 0.003" resulted in casehead separation, then that brass was on it's last legs. Jamming the bullets wouldn't have saved them.

If the brass was in good shape and you wanted to salvage what you could, then you could reseat the bullets longer to jam into the lands with good neck tension. Without enough neck tension, the case would move forward during the FP strike. It's not ideal but and option. The next better step would be to create a false shoulder but that's more steps. Lesson learned.

Ya, I knew it was getting old I track in MTM boxes and anneal after the 3rd firing.


Maybe I am becoming Superstitious but my over bumps happened on the 13th Reload.

The 14th firing was not the best.. funny how the bullet impacts a tiny bit low with a completely detached case head. :-(

It’s pretty depressing to load 20 boxes of 50 and realize you made a mistake on the last couple. But really it was time anyway.

Lynn, your several pay grades above me on the reloading stuff. Truth be told I am starting to slip into the good enough camp for most my shooting and as mentioned started using factory at least until my kid ships off to Wyoming for Collage.

How do you great a false shoulder... and while I still use a stony point to know were the lands are, for the kind of shooting we do the most, we have to be able to rack and unrack a live round if the clock times. Not sure a hard jam is in the cards. I have seen a couple over the years leave a round in the barrel and even jam a jewel with the powder.. not a good thing.

Ok, sorry for the dumb as questions.. at this point it is only academic. But if the shoulder is set back and the round is shorter than the chamber, while the bullet hard jammed, does that stop the shoulder from moving forward and flowing the brass?

Again, sorry if this seems anything but curious, I've been reloading some time and really seem not to be understand the concept.. Maybe I need a hammer to the head?

Sig that was really funny!

FWIW- I certainly have learned a lot in this thread

Jt


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[sigstroker]

I doubt I've loaded any rifle case more than 3 times, or pistol case more than 6 times. It's hard for me to imagine someone shooting more bolt gun rounds than I do machine gun rounds.

[buffybuster]

I doubt I've loaded any rifle case more than 3 times, or pistol case more than 6 times. It's hard for me to imagine someone shooting more bolt gun rounds than I do machine gun rounds.

I know some BR guys running the same PPC cases for over 20 reloads.... and I expect most everyone running precision tactical to get 10 reloads before retiring if they don't loose them first. I don't count how many times I've reloaded pistol cases.

How do you great a false shoulder...

Typically you would neck up the brass to next larger size (6.5mm to 7mm, etc) then neck is back down. That will create a donut in the bottom of the neck which will be your false shoulder. The slightly fiddly thing is when you next down you want to just push the neck just far enough the case chambers with resistance. That will establish your headspace for the case. When it's fired the shoulder will blow out (fireform) to the chamber. I would then anneal the necks because they could be work hardened from all the sizing.

[sigstroker]

The extractor doesn't hold the case against the bolt face?

[buffybuster]

The extractor doesn't hold the case against the bolt face?

Not tight enough to set correct headspace, especially if you have a plunger ejector pushing the case away.