Saco extractor

[sigstroker]

Case rupture in a magnum. I had lots of case head ruptures but they still seal and gasses go down the barrel. This was a complete vertical rupture of a smaller dia case that headspaced like the magnum, but could not seal. It was violent enough that at first I thought the bolt hit me..


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Ouch. The nice thing about Howa/Weatherby Vanguard are those gas ports in the bolt, just in case. Is that sort of mod often done on Remingtons?

[kendog4570]

...The mini 16 is a Sako extractor just wider and longer. The M16 is a mini 16 just wider and longer.

The main difference is the method of retention. The Sako is toggled in place and the M/Mini 16 is cross-pinned. SUPPOSEDLY a higher threshold of force is needed to blow it. At least that's what Dave Kiff told me during one of his quadruple espresso/Red Bull/Rock Star driven diatribes.

[LynnJr]

KenDog
Yeah the only difference I see is the pivot point.
I was going to take some photos but got lazy.
I am actually waiting on Dave to send me 2 M16 extractors because they sent me the minis by mistake. I haven't broken any but two of our shooters did and I wanted some spares just in case.
The BAT actions use a sliding extractor on the lug and the McMillan actions don't use a ejector just an extractor. The McMillan is very close to a Sako but the location is even further from the lug.
The pictures show 3 BAT bolts with the sliding extractors and notice one has no ejector for hotter loads.
The other picture shows the McMillan Sako style extractor on a 50 BMG and a pair of Stiller Tac408 actions. Notice one of the Stiller's has the full size M16 and the other is the Mini M16.
And no I am not a photographer and yes that's the best I can do while holding the handles up with one hand and trying to get the phone to take the picture while eating a snicker bar.

[ar15barrels]

Ouch. The nice thing about Howa/Weatherby Vanguard are those gas ports in the bolt, just in case. Is that sort of mod often done on Remingtons?

Remington has a sealed breech with a gas path away from the shooter that will handle the gas if you blow a case/primer.
When you switch away from the standard Remington "3 rings of steel" design by cutting the bolt nose wide open to use a Sako, Mini16 or M16 extractor, you defeat the gas seal system and more of the gas can come out the back of the reciever.

Having personally blown a case on a stock Remington bolt/receiver and not even noticed the gas to the face, I much prefer the "3 rings of steel" design and therefore the Remington extractor that is required for it to work over the mini16, M16 or Sako extractor designs that leave the breech much more open during a blow-up.
I run Surgeon actions which make full use of the Remington breech system.

All actions have some sort of system to vent the gas that makes it into the bolt (via a blown primer) away from the shooter's face.
The difference is in how they handle the gas that makes it out of the back of the case during more dramatic failure.

Howa's and Weatherbys also have an open breech system.

[MongooseV8]

I also prefer the closed 700 bolt face. Ive blown a few cases and like it when the hot pressurey stuff goes away from my pretty face.

[diver160651]

Remington has a sealed breech with a gas path away from the shooter that will handle the gas if you blow a case/primer.
When you switch away from the standard Remington "3 rings of steel" design by cutting the bolt nose wide open to use a Sako, Mini16 or M16 extractor, you defeat the gas seal system and more of the gas can come out the back of the reciever.

Having personally blown a case on a stock Remington bolt/receiver and not even noticed the gas to the face, I much prefer the "3 rings of steel" design and therefore the Remington extractor that is required for it to work over the mini16, M16 or Sako extractor designs that leave the breech much more open during a blow-up.
I run Surgeon actions which make full use of the Remington breech system.

All actions have some sort of system to vent the gas that makes it into the bolt (via a blown primer) away from the shooter's face.
The difference is in how they handle the gas that makes it out of the back of the case during more dramatic failure.

Howa's and Weatherbys also have an open breech system.

Yes, I understand the Remington port ect. But I wish I had taken the image when my face was honestly coated in blood ~ It was slowly oozing out from everywhere below my glasses. Both times was on a 100% stock Remington 700 bolt. The gasses leaked back through the bolt shroud. It was violent enough to bend the stock extractor.

Just food for thought

> On my Deviants with the extractors as mentioned, I have had lots of case-head separations; with no gasses in the face.

[LynnJr]

Diver
Back in the old days when guys were really pushing the Remington's hard they would drill two holes in the bolt to vent gases into the magazine well.
If you had a Remington 600 which is basically a xp-100 action with the severely doglegged bolt handle the older magazines would include a template for drilling the holes.
My father used to tell me your asking a lot out of that little vent hole when he would see me vibrating powder to get more of it into a case.

[LynnJr]

Drill two 3/16" holes in the bolt, (see figure 1) which exit into the magazine in firing position. In no way is the performance of your rifle impaired, but safety is greatly enhanced. If done with care, the gas vents appear to be factory installed.
After this modification is performed, escaping combustion gases from ruptured primers are vented harmlessly into the magazine. This minor change can certainly make a shoot more enjoyable and safer.



MACHINING SEQUENCE
1. Mount bolt, with firing pin assembly removed, in drill press vice. NOTE: A press should be used to attain quality results.
2. Scribe locations of holes to be drilled in bolt.
3. Center punch the scribed locations.
4. Use a center drill with a 3/16" point. Drill through and countersink just enough to create a slight chamfer. NOTE: Use lubricant. If you do not have a center drill, use a regular 3/16" bit and follow with a file or similar tool to break sharp edges away.
5. Use a 3/8" diameter round file to remove any burrs on the inside of the bolt.
6. Wash bolt thoroughly in solvent and blow dry with air.
7. Reassemble and relubricate the bolt.

It won't fix those who insist upon shooting a 308 in a 270 but it helps.

[diver160651]

It won't fix those who insist upon shooting a 308 in a 270 but it helps.

[sigstroker]

That's pretty cool that Remington would do that. Of course that would be lawsuit bait these days because they would be admitting their rifle wasn't perfect.

I liked those 600's, a friend had one. The Howa gas relief ports are located in about the same place as that template.

[LynnJr]

SigStroker
That post was from James Calhoun fine shooting bullets because my picture taking skills are horrible.
The drilled bolt has been around for longer than me and I am as old as dust.
In the old days before everyone sued everyone when you had a problem people figured out a cure unlike today.

[ar15barrels]

The vents in bolts are ONLY to deal with gas that enters the bolt through the firing pin hole.
No amount of bolt venting will stop the gas/debris that exits the chamber in other places than the firing pin hole.

When you reach that point, you have done something REALLY wrong.

Some designs handle that much better than others.
The more open the bolt face, the more places for stuff to get out of the chamber during a high pressure event.



Controlled feed actions are some of the worst at handling high pressure events.
Fully shrouded bolt faces handle high pressure events the best.

[LynnJr]

Exactly the vents in the bolt were to vent gas when you popped a primer common with the hotter loads.

[buffybuster]

Just food for thought

> On my Deviants with the extractors as mentioned, I have had lots of case-head separations; with no gasses in the face.

Food for thought indeed.... One wonders why you've have "lots of case-head separations"...

[diver160651]

Food for thought indeed.... One wonders why you've have "lots of case-head separations"...

I ran Lapua way too hot for too many loads and over-bumped (turned the micrometer, slightly in error) the last time on about 1000 hand loads.. Prior to that, the internal ring did not show up. I decided to run them rather than toss them out. In that thousand rounds, I had maybe 18-20.. while that is only 2% ish, to me, thats a lot.

I also shot a lot of positional matches and seen others -- it is common enough that I carry a 12gauge brush in my pack. You see enough hand loads shot with people reusing their cases to the end and they show up. Often, it is the extraction that is the final straw.

Yes, every hand-load should be checked with a paper clip, every time, but when your shooting as much as some matches require and have two shooters sometimes we get lazy.. As an example of round count, the SHTC last weekend required about 500 rifle rounds (targets 350-1325) and 120 pistol rounds (targets close). Some matches we might only burn 100-250. But dang it adds up, so the chances of seeing failures is higher just due the to volume. This year I switched to factory ammo, It is NOT as good, but I was becoming a slave to reloading. Truth be told, the factory is good enough in this type of shooting that it is NOT what keeps one out of the top.