Ideas for a 223 trainer.

[milotrain]

With the barrel life, powder capacity, and relative cheapness of match components and prepared brass I don't think the .223 can be beat without going to a .22LR. Hornady 75gr HPBT bullets are very good and very cheap in bulk. Nosler 77gr CC Blems are $139.90 per 1k.

[JMP]

This is what i was leaning towards I was thinking 55's would work well in that 1:12. The faster muzzle velocity mixed with lower BC would probably even out by the time you get out beyond 400yds and good to 600yds, and compare with 6mm 105's in that 3000-3100fps range.

Yes, they are perfect for 400-600 yards. Things like the 45-52grs do very well along with other less expensive bullets do well. Heck, I actually disagree with a lot of sentiment that you can't use factory blasting ammo. If you fine a bulk ammo that is fairly consistent to say 1 MOA, then it is fine to use. At 600 yards, the wind adjustment is MUCH more of an error than your ammo issue so if you want to plink steel, it's okay. I found PMC a good one to do this with since it was cheap and gives you brass without crimps. It was pretty consistent. Stuff like the American Eagle black box, just forget about it. You have to try them out.

Since you are working on wind, you DON'T want a 77gr or 90gr wind beater; it's just for practice and plinking. Unfortunately, factory 223 has gone way up. I used to just get a few cases of it at the Glendale gunshow and sit there and plink up at ASR. You can shoot all day and you just develop a feel of the wind. 223 is very light, so you want to hit swinging targets to make sure you can see it. It's great practice in my opinion

For me, it's just too much effort to load 223 and not that much is gained. I no longer have a 223 bolt rifle. The ammo I use is just crap ammo with mixed headstamps cranked out on a Dillon machine for ARs. With all the other cartridges I have, I am certainly not going to take the time to properly load 223. When I have, I got pretty damn good results with a 50gr V-Max and Varget.

A 6-223.
It's also known as a 6x45.

It's a good way to go also, but you gotta reload and save all your brass unless you want to make more and keep it sorted separately or it's a hassle since you'll have a bunch of 6x45 brass that looks like 223 brass and carries the same headstamp. For 223, the nice thing is that the brass is dime a dozen. If you leave your 6x45 brass at the range, it will confuse the brass whores though, which is always a nice thing. I have a 6x45 barrel that I haven't even put on yet, but I also have 4 barrels in the queue for chambering, and there's going to be one more once I get all the parts for my bolt for my 300WSM.

On a side note, I bet they defeat level iii armor at 50-100yds, unlike many other calibers.

Who cares? That sounds like the AR guys fighting over XM855 vs XM193. You are just practicing. You'd never use a .22 cal 45" long bolt rifle for defense. You can also beat any armor with a proper boom stick.

[russ69]

...For me, it's just too much effort to load 223 and not that much is gained...

There is a school of thought that it is very important for a less than master class shooter to use the best possible rifle and ammo. The reason is that the shooter needs to see on the target what is happening and not guess if it is the gun, ammo or the shooter. The shooter needs instant feedback.
For me, practicing with anything less than the best is a waste of range time. I have wasted my time if my shooting system is holding me back. It's even more important for a shooter that is still learning the basics.
In the shooting games where extreme accuracy counts, people will be shooting handloads. If you are not, chances are you will lag behind the good shooters and by a pretty fair margin.

[russ69]

For a trainer, a 6x223 will have a longer barrel life than a regular 223.
You can shoot 95gr SMK's and they have the same BC as a 30 caliber 175 SMK.
This will be great for wind practice.

A great suggestion and a fun cartridge to shoot. We won't tell the OP about the 6BR being better than just about everything when you are talking economical and long range shooting.

[JMP]

There is a school of thought that it is very important for a less than master class shooter to use the best possible rifle and ammo. The reason is that the shooter needs to see on the target what is happening and not guess if it is the gun, ammo or the shooter. The shooter needs instant feedback.
For me, practicing with anything less than the best is a waste of range time. I have wasted my time if my shooting system is holding me back. It's even more important for a shooter that is still learning the basics.
In the shooting games where extreme accuracy counts, people will be shooting handloads. If you are not, chances are you will lag behind the good shooters and by a pretty fair margin.

I am in the same school of thought as you describe. That's the reason that I recommend for new shooters to just start out with a good rifle like an Accuracy International if they can afford it. However, the reality of .223 is that except for the people that shoot .223 for competitive accuracy purposes, they will be so far from perfect, it isn't going to be as important. Most people aren't going to spend the $600 on a good barrel for a rifle they just consider a trainer, and they will not usually pay the money for a set of Lapua brass and track carefully.

It's very much analogous to the many people that practice by shooting rimfire and they do so on the cheap with something like a Ruger 10/22 and and cheap ammo like CCI Minimag. This provides poor accuracy, but many find it good enough for what they are accomplishing. Even though it is so far from perfect, I can get behind that idea due to the economy and it still provides value.

A great suggestion and a fun cartridge to shoot. We won't tell the OP about the 6BR being better than just about everything when you are talking economical and long range shooting.

I think the 6BR is a good starter's cartridge. However, it isn't good as "trainer" for shooting in the wind as it does exceedingly well with wind. You would be better off just shooting 308 as that is more wind sensitive.

To me, the idea seems like one wants practice dealing with wind. If you do not have regular access to a 1000 yards+ range, you are not going to learn as much. Nothing special .223 will get pushed around at 500 yards. Then, one can go to local range and actually get the opportunity to move his wind dials. There's no better cartridge to learn wind on, in my opinion that .223 Rem. Yes, you can at 200 yards with a 22lr, but I don't think you learn as much because you aren't getting as many wind currents and your won't get to observe as much environment and mirage in your scope.

That's my personal opinion. It may seem odd, but in this case, I'd go for deliberately bad ballistic properties, and the 223 is great for that as it is horrible with light bullets, yet it is very common and easy to come by.

[russ69]

...However, the reality of .223 is that except for the people that shoot .223 for competitive accuracy purposes, they will be so far from perfect, it isn't going to be as important...

I tell guys on a budget to get a good AR15 HBAR National Match and go shoot some highpower. If they are interested in being a good shot, that rifle is the cheapest way to get started. When they get sick of shooting Marksman class, they can start handloading and at that point you can do anything you want. 52 grain match loads, 55 grain plinking or 77/80 grain long range loads. That rifle will take you a long way and it's the best bang for the buck.

[TMB 1]

If you want a 22cal factory rifle to practice with light bullets, get a 222 Remington.

[JMP]

I tell guys on a budget to get a good AR15 HBAR National Match and go shoot some highpower. If they are interested in being a good shot, that rifle is the cheapest way to get started. When they get sick of shooting Marksman class, they can start handloading and at that point you can do anything you want. 52 grain match loads, 55 grain plinking or 77/80 grain long range loads. That rifle will take you a long way and it's the best bang for the buck.

I agree. However, when it comes to bolt action rifles, few will be rocking full custom rifles in .223, and I am not aware of any high end manufacturers that make a great bolt action .223. Going Highpower with an AR is a different story.

[vliberatore]

If all you have is 100-200yds, a match grade 22LR is perfect.
It will be more accurate than shooting 55gr fmjbt bullets.

What do you recommend for a 22LR trainer?

I'm assuming not a 10/22...

[JMP]

What do you recommend for a 22LR trainer?

I'm assuming not a 10/22...

I would definitely go with an Anschutz. But, you gotta find the right ammo for your rifle, usually among the Eley/Lapua/RWS/SK/etc. You can get a 64 action Anschutz for not that much at all. You are paying only a few hundred more than for a lower end 22lr. If you are hardcore, then get and Anschutz 54 or a custom.

[russ69]

I would definitely go with an Anschutz...

Get the best one you can afford.

[vintagearms]

I agree. However, when it comes to bolt action rifles, few will be rocking full custom rifles in .223, and I am not aware of any high end manufacturers that make a great bolt action .223. Going Highpower with an AR is a different story.

I am one of the few and had I done it over would have probably just gone 308 or 6.5CM. Still get out and shoot it when I get the rare chance.

Remington SPS with custom bolt knob
Bartlein 1 in 8 5R 24.5" with Ross Schuler brake
Manners T2
Huber 1.5lb trigger
Bushnell Elite 3.5x21 DMR 5 mil knobs

Thing shoots lights out. Its the idiot behind the trigger that needs help lol.

[Guardian Mode]

I think if you spent time making some decent ammo with 55fmj's, being mindfully of runout and consistent coal and charges....you could probably get moa accuracy from a r700 varmint. Maybe even slap it into a Boyds tacticool stock. Let's say you were shooting a PRS-style match, it would be awesome practice. Size, weight, bolt, trigger would all feel similar. Esp when shooting with same scope, bipod, and sling. Boyds tacticool in the trainer could be a nice match up with a b&c stock in your match rifle.

Now, if your main gun is a 308 or even a 6.5mm cartridge, 75 amax's, like I said, are going for $99 for 600. That ain't too bad these days. BC matches pretty well with a 168 bthp, and can probably be charged to match up speeds with a main gun. And if that main gun has a brake on it, a 223 with no brake would even have a similar feel as far as recoil goes.

[JMP]

I think if you spent time making some decent ammo with 55fmj's, being mindfully of runout and consistent coal and charges....you could probably get moa accuracy from a r700 varmint.

I can assure you that MOA accuracy is not hard to attain even in the stock 26" SPS barrel unless you buy one that is bent. Lightweight .223 bullets are quite forgiving. Where you notice the real difference in good bullets is in the longer ranges. If you are just shooting short range for practice plinking, the cheap FMJs do fine for several hundred yards.

[DAVO]

Lots of good suggestions that balance accuracy, cost, and the similarity to whatever your primary rifle may be.

This is one of the selling points of a Savage. I have a .308 (saving for a .260 barrel and reloading equipment), but I can do a barrel swap for numerous other calibers in my garage.

For training, you could keep your eyes out for a cheap factory take off barrel. Almost everything is modular, so stocks, barrels, the trigger, etc are easily and incrementally swappable, and typically there are options to swap out any internal magazine if you want a repeater. Less expensive varmint bullets are a good option for short range.