High-End 1911 Test Target

[SVTNate]

I think a lot of people assume a whole lot about test targets.

They mean little to nothing for most guys who have been shooting and purchasing high end 1911's for a long time.

I don't even recall if Ed Brown provides one, and I own three Ed Brown 1911's.

Wilson Combat does, but the test target is NOT to test accuracy. The test targets are shot off-hand to function check the guns, and by the way they are shot at 15 yards while the gun is zeroed for POI at 50 yards so at 15 they shoot high anyway. They have more than one test shooter, and those guys are doing 1,000-1,500 rounds per day (mostly 45ACP). So imagine if your test target was shot at the end of the day by a guy who has been shooting 45 all day long. It means absolutely nothing with regards to precision OR accuracy.

A few times per year, Wilson Combat will have a gun come back to them with the owner complaining about accuracy. Wilson runs these guns in a Ransom Rest, and almost 100% of the time they are returned to the owner untouched because they meet WC's standards for accuracy. These are people who *should* be saying "I need to change my POI for the distance I shoot at, so I need a sight swap" (which Wilson will happily provide).

I don't even look at the test targets that come with my Wilson Combat 1911's. I pull the gun and the mags out of the nylon bag, and the bag gets put in a pile with the rest of them. I know what the gun can do, I know what I can do with the gun.

My Sig P210 came with one, I think. I glanced at it and again, in the box, in the pile.

[hambam105]

I'm no spokesman for the Industry

It means absolutely nothing with regards to precision OR accuracy.

I've yet to hear of these individual's spending time and ammunition on frivolous behaviors.

I think a lot of people assume a whole lot about test targets.

X-Rays and Test Targets are subjective, no assumptions required.

[Cody]

I don't even believe those targets, I always ignore them.

There's a 12 year old kid in the back room punching holes in targets with a pencil.

[MrSam]

That would probably drive up the cost and time to produce, slightly, but it may drive it up either way.
1. Cost: More rounds of ammunition will be needed to test the gun. Instead of shooting 3-5 rounds, they will not need 5-12 rounds (or so). 3-5 to test on paper. 3 or so to adjust. 3-5 more to group onto another target (because if they group onto the same targets, you can be certain that some customers will assume that it was one group, and that the gun is simply inaccurate).

2. Time to produce: It takes time to test a gun, let alone sight it in. More time testing one gun = less time producing/testing others. That's not to say that gun manufacturers should skimp out on the test. However, I can understand why they would cut out what they would deem as unnecessary testing.

Personally, I wouldn't mind if my handguns came completely sight it in. I've yet to purchase one that has though.

[Matt P]

I have yet to have owned a handgun that required movement of the open sights in an effort to set it shooting point of aim.
The only handgun sights I have had to adjust were mini holos, or red dots. Of course this was done as they replaced the fixed sights.
Too many shooter induced factors affect inaccuracy.
I have always found shots outside my intended area of engagement to be my fault alone.

[sammy]

Matt, that is strange. Every pistol I have (except for my glocks) have required some minor adjustments. Not a single 1911 I own was zeroed when I got it.

[John Joseph]

A lot depends on ammo. A lot depends on who is doing the testing. If a gun maker wants to wow customers they should use a Ransom Rest and standard projectiles of the optimized weight (230 grns for .45 acp, 158 grns for .38 spl. etc..) Even a fixed sight S&W model 10 can cut clover leafs in a Ransom with all the shooter induced variables minimized.

[RobertMW]

Most likely, Colt takes a batch of these guns, lets say 50. And someone in the factory is expected to function test and inspect each of these guns during their shift.

In order to do this, they probably have a ransom rest type setup which "Should" have the gun pointing at the exact dead center of the target. But, over time that rest may come slightly out of alignment, or the gun may not be gripped 100% repeatably each time.

Either way, I would bet that grouping has some kind of tolerance for precision and accuracy, and that shot group meets that spec.

They have to push out hundreds of guns every day, and firearms tend to be 100% function test, that is a lot of rounds for people to aim and fire in a day, so some kind of mechanical means is necessary.

Take the gun out on the range and hand rest it, take the time to make sure every shot has the exact same sight alignment, that will give you the true point of aim.

[highpower]

A persons grip, ammo and the gun (trigger, grips) itself makes hole on the target. That target shows consistency and with a good shooter it could be the bull eye holed out. Stop worrying about nothing.

^^^^^^This!

Everyone holds a gun different, I typically shoot low and to the left when I shoot a gun that I haven't adjusted the sights for my grip/trigger squeeze.

[parbo1]

This is the fixed sight Special Combat. They are using a 6 o'clock hold. It is inside the acceptable circle on the target. I would have to check the target that came with mine to tell you what the diameter of that circle is, but it isn't that big. I would take that any day as long as the price is right.

[enegue]

Matt, that is strange. Every pistol I have (except for my glocks) have required some minor adjustments. Not a single 1911 I own was zeroed when I got it.

Yeah, that is odd. Every new pistol I bought was zeroed. Colt Gold Cup, IWI baby eagle, Springfield XD, and some more - all zeroed and shot point of aim out of the box without any adjustment. Only one that shot high was a Python which I bought used.

I would hope that these custom-assembled 1911s would be zeroed. I think they are probably fine, even with that target that I originally posted. I was really just asking because I wanted to know if I should not buy that one in particular or wait for another one with a better test target - now I know that it probably doesn't matter but it's still less appealing than a target that has holes in the bulls-eye. Also, it's interesting to know everyone's opinion on this.

Hoping I can close the deal on a Wilson CQB Elite in the next couple of days if everything works out.

[SVTNate]

I've yet to hear of these individual's spending time and ammunition on frivolous behaviors.

I'll repeat it. They spend time and ammunition function testing the weapon. Correct, it's not frivolous. But it has nothing to do with the accuracy of the weapon. Want to ask Wilson Combat yourself? Call Customer Service, ask for Anthony, tell him that Nate the lawyer in California referred you to him. I own lots of Wilson Combat pistols. I've spend hours talking to people who train with them, work for the company, Wilson Combat Master Dealers.

X-Rays and Test Targets are subjective, no assumptions required.

No. Objective. Not subjective. Objective in what they reveal about a pistol, objective in purpose. There is no "subjective". Just people on the internet who want to speculate about the purpose of test targets when they could simply call the company who made the gun and ask. I'm not saying every company uses test targets for the same purpose, but there really is no mystery or reason to debate it. Any firearms maker will happily explain the purpose of their test targets, whether fired from a rest or offhand, what distance, etc.


And to the original poster, the Colt you are considering isn't even in the same ballpark as a Brown or a Wilson, regardless of what someone is charging for the Colt.

[SVTNate]

Yeah, that is odd. Every new pistol I bought was zeroed. Colt Gold Cup, IWI baby eagle, Springfield XD, and some more - all zeroed and shot point of aim out of the box without any adjustment. Only one that shot high was a Python which I bought used.

I would hope that these custom-assembled 1911s would be zeroed. I think they are probably fine, even with that target that I originally posted. I was really just asking because I wanted to know if I should not buy that one in particular or wait for another one with a better test target - now I know that it probably doesn't matter but it's still less appealing than a target that has holes in the bulls-eye. Also, it's interesting to know everyone's opinion on this.

Hoping I can close the deal on a Wilson CQB Elite in the next couple of days if everything works out.

The custom and semi-custom 1911's are most certainly zeroed. Unlike your Baby Eagle and XD, each and every pistol that is built will be zeroed and checked for function in a rigorous and expensive process. Did you know that Wilson Combat shoots up to 100-200 rounds through your brand new gun before it leaves the factory? The test target represents a very small amount of live fire that the pistol goes through before the company is satisfied that the weapon is ready to be cleaned, lubed, and sold. If you sent Wilson a gun for service, it gets fired again to make sure the gun is perfect.

I have owned and shot everything from cheap $500 1911's up to Baers, TRP's, Springfield Custom Shop 1911's, Browns, Wilsons, Nighthawks, various Colts, various custom 1911's, etc. If you buy a Brown or a Wilson, you are getting one of the most accurate, reliable, and well built 1911's money can buy. Don't sweat a piece of paper that comes with the gun.

[colossians323]

I don't even believe those targets, I always ignore them.

They're real. It is okay to believe them. Just like when someone tells me they don't believe in guns. I have to grab one and show them they're real

[colossians323]

I think groups are more important. You can always drift the sights to your poa to match the poi although it would be ideal if the sights were perfectly centered and could produce the same tight groups with the poa to match the poi in the bullseye.

That being said plus the shooter that is shooting them is probably not a marksmen or competition shooter