Decocker Model - DA/SA Interpretation

[Heero]

Hi All,

I'm actually curious to find out what other people's interpretation is on how to properly use DA/SA in a situation in which you need to draw your weapon. Now, I'm already aware that DA is to allow the pistol to be carried on you in a much safer setting than SA. And I'm also already aware that in an immediate situation in which you draw your weapon and shoot, you will most likely shoot it in DA mode.

But for example; if you heard noises in your house in the middle of the night and then you pick up your weapon, do you leave it in DA and then investigate? Or do you switch it to SA?

How about in a situation in which you drew your gun at someone and have them held at gunpoint? Do you stay in DA or switch to SA?

I'm just curious what others would do based on situations.

[hossb7]

I shot my P226 exclusively for ~6-7 years and 12,000+ rounds.

The first shot will always be double action.

In an event where you have fired the gun, leaving it in single action is fine but I would decock before I moved or before I holstered (obvious).

[Ronin2]

First shot is DA if you take it, subsequent shots are SA until you stand down. Decock when you stand down from engagement... The would mean when you got from on target/scanning your sector into guard or low ready but BEFORE you begin the holster if process.

TRAIN to take that first DA shot and transition to SA for follow up shots. Your DA/SA action pistol should be hammer down on loaded chamber DA first shot, FINGER STRAIGHT, while clearing a structure. You finger ONLY enters the triger guard and is on the trigger when you "have a target in your sights".

Drawing the gun and then cocking the hammer takes more time that a fast DA shot and it causes you to break your strong handed grip off the grip of the gun to bring the thumb up to cock the hammer.

If you have time to prepare, cock the hammer. It would be absolutely stupid not to give yourself the advantage of a consistent trigger pull from the first shot to the last. If you maintain good trigger discipline, this is a non-issue. How do people who use a 1911 safely handle their pistol? Or people who use a striker fired pistol? I see no good reason to take the first shot in DA if you don't have to. Just keep your boogerhook off the bangswitch until you're ready to shoot.

If you intend to use a DA/SA action gun for self/home defense then you should also take the time to TRAIN and master the DA trigger pull. If you don't or can't , get another gun without DA!!!

[JJE]

I think this one is a no-brainer. The KISS principle pretty much demands that you take the first shot in DA under any realistic scenario. An unrealistic scenario is that you need to get a head shot on a distant bad guy and have plenty of time to aim - that's never going to happen - but if it did, I guess you could cock the gun into SA for that first shot. But getting back to reality - do you really want to clear your house at night (totally hyped up on adrenaline) with a gun in SA when you haven't trained extensively to do that? Heck no! If you already have the drop on a bad guy, you gain nothing by cocking the gun manually to SA, but there's a chance you may fumble the hammer and take a shot you didn't intend. Again, heck no!

[Sleighter]

The last thing I would want in a high stress environment is a light trigger on a SA pull. I consider the DA pull fantastic for both of the situations you presented: awakened in the night, gun on someone already complying.

Both require a solid confirmation that something that startles you is an actual threat and the absolute last thing I would want is for me to be jumpy and have the gun to go off without making a deliberate decision that deadly force was needed.

[neouser]

I'll play devil's advocate here. If you're in a hurry, draw and then DA first shot.

If you have time to prepare, cock the hammer. It would be absolutely stupid not to give yourself the advantage of a consistent trigger pull from the first shot to the last. If you maintain good trigger discipline, this is a non-issue. How do people who use a 1911 safely handle their pistol? Or people who use a striker fired pistol? I see no good reason to take the first shot in DA if you don't have to. Just keep your boogerhook off the bangswitch until you're ready to shoot.

[Heero]

I was thinking the exact same thing about people who use 1911's or striker fired pistols with light triggers (Like the PPQ) for defense.

I'll play devil's advocate here. If you're in a hurry, draw and then DA first shot.

If you have time to prepare, cock the hammer. It would be absolutely stupid not to give yourself the advantage of a consistent trigger pull from the first shot to the last. If you maintain good trigger discipline, this is a non-issue. How do people who use a 1911 safely handle their pistol? Or people who use a striker fired pistol? I see no good reason to take the first shot in DA if you don't have to.

[Citadelgrad87]

I'll play devil's advocate here. If you're in a hurry, draw and then DA first shot.

If you have time to prepare, cock the hammer. It would be absolutely stupid not to give yourself the advantage of a consistent trigger pull from the first shot to the last. If you maintain good trigger discipline, this is a non-issue. How do people who use a 1911 safely handle their pistol? Or people who use a striker fired pistol? I see no good reason to take the first shot in DA if you don't have to. Just keep your boogerhook off the bangswitch until you're ready to shoot.

As you train, so shall you fight.

It's designed to give the safety of a first round double action pull. If you train properly, your first round will go like the hundreds of first round double action shots you've taken in practice.

If you want SA every time, or a striker fired pistol, buy one.

I lol at people who manually cock revolvers for every shot. Like some adrenaline fairy is going to send their rounds true if they are in a real shooting.

As an extreme example, There are videos showing cops who always unsnapped their duty rigs at the range to pick up a half second on their draw times, violently jerking their weapons upward while being shot, but unable to clear the holster.

It's a pretty serious deal, I don't care what you decide is best, just know that when the adrenaline is flowing, you're going to do it exactly how you practiced it.

[P5Ret]

I was thinking the exact same thing about people who use 1911's or striker fired pistols with light triggers (Like the PPQ) for defense.

The difference is that people who shoot and carry 1911's do the same thing all the time. Most people who carry DA/SA guns train to shoot DA from a draw if need be. If you train to cock the gun into SA every time you pull it (kind of foolish if you ask me) then by all means when things go bump in the night go ahead and cock it into SA. However if you don't train that way leave it alone and use it the way you train with it. You aren't saving any time and trust me when the adrenalin starts pumping and you need it you won't even notice the difference between the first DA pull and the last SA pull.

[neouser]

Fortunately, this is almost a non-issue. With Taurus, CZ, FN, Sig, Springfield, Ruger, S&W, H&K, etc. All entering or re-entring the striker fired market, there are very few companies left who only make DA/SA pistols. Two of the only companies I can think of off the top of my head who don't make striker fired pistols are Beretta and Colt.

[Heero]

Hmm, I probably wouldn't say this is almost a non-issue. There are plenty of people who are still purchasing and using DA/SA firearms everyday. I own both striker fired and SA/DA guns, but I would feel safer carrying a decocked handgun mainly because of the heavier trigger pull.

Fortunately, this is almost a non-issue. With Taurus, CZ, FN, Sig, Springfield, Ruger, S&W, H&K, etc. All entering or re-entring the striker fired market, there are very few companies left who only make DA/SA pistols. Two of the only companies I can think of off the top of my head who don't make striker fired pistols are Beretta and Colt.

[tacticalcity]

My least favorite action. But if you are going to insist on it then I recommend the Sig 226. The DA pull is a little lighter than a lot of the other popular options (like the Beretta) and easier to master. Even as a detractor of the DA/SA, I find the Sig 226 hard not to like. It's fun to shoot. I'm sure there are a lot of other really great ones I have yet to try, but of the ones I tried the Sig 226 impressed me the most. Wasn't so impressed with the Beretta 92/96 or the HK USP. But to each their own.

That said...if you really feel "safer" with this action, then I highly recommend a professional training course or two. When I first got into shooting (military) I felt pretty strongly that I wanted a DA pull and a manual thumb safety. Then I got some private training that far exceeded anything I received from the military. Changed my mind about this issue after day one. Over time as I got more proficient, the more I realized I didn't need those features to be safe.

It's lack of confidence. And if you have it, it is probably justified. Training is the solution.

Now, when I say that people get really butt hurt. They spout off about how many years they've been shooting. How they are a cop. How they served in such and such unit. My background wasn't much different. I carried for a living. I had no idea how much I didn't know until I was exposed to some top notch training...and it completely changed my mindset.

Your finger and your brain and a quality holster that blocks the trigger guard are all the "safety" features you need if you are truly proficient. And the only way to get there is training.

Now, that said, there are plenty of other perfectly good reasons to like the DA/SA handgun over other types of guns. Even simply just liking it because you are used to is a perfectly valid reason to like it over something else. But not feeling safe without those features is never an acceptable answer. Because it means (whether you admit it or not) you are unsafe. It means you are relying on something mechanical to make up for your failures in proper gun handling. Why else would you fear them not being there?

I know that's gonna tick people off. But it's true. You should trust your gun handling skills enough that a thumb safety and heavy pull are redundant. It's OK to see them as perk if you want to. Not so OK for them to be a necessity. Because if you keep sticking your finger in the trigger well, safety or no safety and DA pull or no DA pull you will have an ND eventually. If you are handling the gun properly, then those features are redundant. If you like them...great. If you feel you "need" them...not so great! Take a good course (or two or three or four) with a good instructor. Before you know it you will build much deserved confidence in your gun handling skills. You may still want those features, but you won't feel you need them to be safe.

Of course, guys told me this for years before I listened. I was really stubborn about it. I fought the idea tooth and nail. So I expect no less from others. You just don't know what you don't know until you are exposed to it.

[Trenchfoot]

Hmm, I probably wouldn't say this is almost a non-issue. There are plenty of people who are still purchasing and using DA/SA firearms everyday.

3 out of the last 4 guns I have bought have been DA/SA.

It all boils down to training. I can't tell you how many times I have been at the range and seen someone with a DA/SA pistol who never decocked the gun after inserting a new magazine. They will go through 100-200 rounds and never take a DA shot. Unless I am practicing reloading and re-engaging a target, every time I insert a new magazine I decock the pistol.

[essjay]

I can't tell you how many times I have been at the range and seen someone with a DA/SA pistol who never decocked the gun after inserting a new magazine. They will go through 100-200 rounds and never take a DA shot.

Guilty about half the time. The other half I'll take every shot DA and get really annoyed with my aim. :-/

[tacticalcity]

The downside to not practicing with the DA pull is that you are not building up the muscle memory you would need in a real life gunfight...heaven forbid you need to defend yourself.

How do you store the gun? How do you carry it (if you don't carry today you most likely will want to in the future)? Most likely decocked. Even if you don't there is a chance you could accidentally decock it under the stress of having to use it in self defense for the first time. I tried carrying my USP Cocked and Locked, and I was ALWAYS pushing too far on the safety and decocking it. Gave up on that idea pretty quickly. Worked on paper, not in real life.

So you need it to be second nature to put just the right amount of pressure on the DA pull immediately followed by just the right amount of pressure for the SA pull without pulling your sights off target all in less time than it takes to blink. Sounds a lot easier than it is.

When you're new to it, and just starting to train realistically (with time constraints, a holster, turning targets that keep you from cheating, all stuff you find at good shooting school) you will find you draw, point in, then don't pull hard enough on the first shot so it takes up a lot of time. Now you have to get another shot off and the clock is running out so you pull WAY too hard on your SA follow up shot. Both shots are all over the damn place...for a really long time...because it is a really hard thing to master...like rubbing your belly and tapping your head at the same time...then eventually it starts to come together as you build the muscle memory to pull just the right amount in quick succession. But the only way to built up that muscle memory is to actually train with the DA pull, and under timed conditions.

Most people go to the range and rarely if ever even use the DA pull. They cock the hammer (which Murphy's Law says you won't have time to do in a gun fight) and shoot the heck out of that SA pull and never touch the more difficult DA pull.

Of course, if it is just a target gun...none of that really matters. Plink away. But if you are serious about it being an HD gun then you need to master both pulls in a fraction of a fraction of a second. That takes time, patience, and lots of ammo. But you will get there.

I recommend firing no more than 3-4 shots max on SA before decocking the gun, taking a beat, and then starting over with the DA pull. It is OK if your range doesn't allow holsters, just start from the low ready, raise the gun to line you a good sight picture, fire DA, then no more than 3 or 4 DA follow up shots as quickly as you can control the shots. If you are not hitting the black slow down. Keep practicing. In fact, you want a hand sized group for body shots and a fist sized group for your head shots. Any bigger, slow down or take a quick break. If you are tighter than that, speed up. Before you know it you will be able to fire controlled pairs and non-strandard response drills in the time it takes somebody to blink.

The more you force yourself to transition from the DA pull to the SA pull in quick succession (building speed as you improve but not rushing that too much until you are ready) the better you will be with that action. It takes time. Anything worth wild does.