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.45 and .40 input please.

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  • #76
    Gemini Effect
    Member
    • Feb 2013
    • 341

    Originally posted by Grayblue
    The following is my article about 40S&W.

    People tend to think of it in terms of relationship between 9mm Parabellum and 45ACP, thinking that it is intended to be a caliber that is a compromise between the two.

    While the "compromise" design aspect may be true in some regards, it does not apply to all aspects, especially ones that are important. For a shooter, what 40S&W WAS INTENDED TO BE does not matter. Only thing that does matter is WHAT IT IS. Most complaints about 40S&W comes from misunderstanding of what 40S&W is.

    So, is 40S&W a compromise caliber intended to blend betwenn 9mm Parabellum and 45ACP?

    The ansewer: ONLY in dimensional aspects, such as bullet size/weight, and capacity.

    That is where the "balance between 9mm and 45ACP" ends.

    Among people who complain about 40S&W, the largest portion of them complains about excessive recoil or "snappiness." In my view, that is a very natural consequence of people generally viewing 40S&W as "in between 9mm and 45ACP" caliber. As far as controllability goes, 40S&W is nothing of the kind. If you look at ballistics chart of combat ammo manufacturers, such as Speer, this will become quickly evident. The power level of 40S&W is not in between 9mm and 45ACP. It is actually just as, and often more, powerful than 45ACP.

    We cannot blame the ammo manufacturers for this. The power level between 9mm and 45ACP is not that great, so if the goal is to make an ammo more powerful than 9mm, then it would naturally end up being same or close to 45ACP, and the design goal was not to go higher, as was the case with 10mm.

    That means, with a 40S&W, you will generally end up shooting a ammo that is just as, and often more, powerful as 45ACP out of a gun that are generally dimensionally smaller and lighter. Considering most people who shoot 45ACP use 230gr standard pressure, most 40S&W combat loads are actually more powerful than that of 45ACP.

    That can be good news to people such as myself, who wants to fire the most powerful ammo I can still manage out of a gun that is not bigger than average 9mm pistol dimensions. 45ACP/10mm pistols generally do not fit me well or have too low ammo capacity.

    However, if you are looking for something a little more powerful than 9mm, but more controllable than 45ACP, do not choose a 40S&W for that reason. It is nothing of the kind.


    40S&W Speer GDHP in 180gr and Winchester Ranger 180gr produce about 420 ft.lbs for muzzle energy. That goes up to 484 ft.lbs in Speer 165gr, and 476 ft.lbs in case of Winchester RA40TA.

    45ACP Speer GDHP in 230gr produces around 404 ft.lbs. Federal HST in 45ACP is also 404 ft.lbs. 45ACP 230gr Winchester RA45T is about 418 ft.lbs.

    As you can see from above the heaviest of 40S&W either matches or exceed 230 gr 45ACP power level.

    Now, lets also compare lighter bullet loads.

    Of course, lighter weight 45ACP ammo do gain more power. 185gr Speer GDHP gets 453 ft.lbs. But, 40S&W easily overpowers that if it also goes with lighter weight. 165gr and 155gr in 40S&W overpowers it.

    So, the above indicates that heaviest 40S&W overpowers heaviest 45ACP.

    Even if 45ACP get more power with lighter bullets, 40S&W will still overpower it with lighter bullets also.

    Only case a 45ACP will overpower 40S&W is if it goes +P.
    So in other words, if a perp is hit with a .40 round, a tiny nuclear explosion happens inside their bodies!

    Suck on that , James Yeager!
    My YouTube Project: http://www.youtube.com/user/BlueonGoldZ/videos

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    • #77
      Gemini Effect
      Member
      • Feb 2013
      • 341

      Originally posted by AregularGuy
      Just an FYI, there are certainly 10 round .45 mags for the XD. In fact they fit both XD and XDM .45, the only XD/XDM caliber that is interchangeable.
      I haven't found any but then again, I only looked for like 3 minutes.

      Do you know of any online stores that sell 10 round .45 mags for the XD?
      My YouTube Project: http://www.youtube.com/user/BlueonGoldZ/videos

      Comment

      • #78
        Gemini Effect
        Member
        • Feb 2013
        • 341

        Originally posted by Grayblue

        40S&W Speer GDHP in 180gr and Winchester Ranger 180gr produce about 420 ft.lbs for muzzle energy. That goes up to 484 ft.lbs in Speer 165gr, and 476 ft.lbs in case of Winchester RA40TA.

        45ACP Speer GDHP in 230gr produces around 404 ft.lbs. Federal HST in 45ACP is also 404 ft.lbs. 45ACP 230gr Winchester RA45T is about 418 ft.lbs.

        As you can see from above the heaviest of 40S&W either matches or exceed 230 gr 45ACP power level.

        Now, lets also compare lighter bullet loads.

        Of course, lighter weight 45ACP ammo do gain more power. 185gr Speer GDHP gets 453 ft.lbs. But, 40S&W easily overpowers that if it also goes with lighter weight. 165gr and 155gr in 40S&W overpowers it.

        So, the above indicates that heaviest 40S&W overpowers heaviest 45ACP.

        Even if 45ACP get more power with lighter bullets, 40S&W will still overpower it with lighter bullets also.

        Only case a 45ACP will overpower 40S&W is if it goes +P.

        I'm a fan of the .40 and that is the pistol caliber I have selected but I'll play the devil's advocate and ask a question.

        The muzzle energy I think is only have of the equation because, as we all know, most of the important damage to a person is the round staying in the target as opposed to spearing right through it.

        I know you were mentioning hollow point ammo but what about regular ball ammo?

        Shouldn't the other factor be the damage that each respective round causes once it hits and will the .45 create a bigger wound cavity due to its substantially larger size?

        Also, I haven't done any research in regards to this yet but does the flat nose of the .40 (in ball ammo form) contribute at all to its performance once it hits a target?
        My YouTube Project: http://www.youtube.com/user/BlueonGoldZ/videos

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        • #79
          ap3572001
          Calguns Addict
          • Jun 2007
          • 6039

          Originally posted by Barang
          Never fired a 45 so I'm very interested in comparison to 40. Is the difference between these two are like 40 to 9mm?
          1-How strong is the recoil? 2-How strong is muzzle flip?

          I'm considering 45 as an addition to the family so would very much appreciate any help you can give. Thanks and Merry Christmas everyone.
          Ok. I think I can help. I use (and used) both . On and Off duty and in competition.

          If we JUST compare .45 to .40 ,from a full size handgun I rather hit my target with a 45 HST or Ranger 230 JHP than with a 180 Ranger or HST JHP.

          In reality , my Glock 22 GEN4 fits my hands better than an HK45 or Glock21.

          I use my G22 with 15 and 22 rd magazines.

          And 180JHP HST or Ranger is great ammo.

          I will stick with .40 on duty.

          On my own time , I like to carry single stack pistols.

          If I could (my department does not let us carry 1911's) , I would carry my custom Colt Combat Commander in .45ACP.

          Both .40 and .45 are great .

          Comment

          • #80
            Barang
            CGN Contributor
            • Aug 2013
            • 12866

            Thank you all for chiming in. I have read all the comments and learned a lot. Feels like I'm a pro now between these two calibers. Have a Merry Christmas to all.

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            • #81
              Oliver_Charles
              Banned
              • Jan 2013
              • 1196

              ***
              Last edited by Oliver_Charles; 12-25-2013, 9:22 PM.

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              • #82
                Gemini Effect
                Member
                • Feb 2013
                • 341

                Originally posted by Oliver_Charles
                .40 owners have little wieners. -James Yeager. (Edited)
                It's a compromise round. And I don't compromise. 9 or 45.
                Probably the most idiotic statement ever made.
                My YouTube Project: http://www.youtube.com/user/BlueonGoldZ/videos

                Comment

                • #83
                  Deimos887
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2013
                  • 1673

                  Yeah its a compromise round, just like .45acp was to .45 Colt when the military crossed over to a semi-auto.. although thats more of an apple/orange comparison.

                  You do know that ballistically speaking .40s&w is nothing knew? .38-40wcf is ballistically very similar... (not really .38cal, actually .40... 180grain pill pushing approx 950fps)... which was a very popular revolver/carbine cartridge in the "wild west", alongside .44-40, .44 Russian and the venerable .45 Colt.

                  It really isnt a compromise

                  No experience with .38-40 btw, I just like to read
                  A slightly less known ballistic comparison similar to .30-30 vs 7.62x39.

                  Comment

                  • #84
                    rman
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2012
                    • 2267

                    my buddy shot my 40 and 45 recently and thought the 40 had more recoil...

                    p229 in 40 and p220 stainless in 45... not exactly an apples to apples, i shoulda grabbed my p245 for a closer match.. or better yet the p220 carry.

                    the gun does make a world of a difference though, shooting my p229 is a joy, while i loathed shooting a g22


                    -Armand
                    Sent from my Apple Galaxy Note 7

                    Comment

                    • #85
                      North Bay Guy
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2012
                      • 1230

                      Depending on the gun you may not notice much difference, I mean there will be a difference but not an excessive or negative one. I shot my first .45 (1911) at 12 years old. I never even picked up a .40 till I was 22 when I bought a Glock22. I was actually a little surprised how snappy it was. The weight and size of the gun is going to dictate the amount of felt recoil. Put it this way, I was at the range with a good buddie who's primarily a 9mm and .45 guy. When I started shooting my G22 he asked me, what I was shooting. Me, it's a .40. Him, damn that's louder then a .45.

                      Some people don't like .40 because it's pretty snappy in a lot of guns. Nothing a little training can't fix though. I like running Winchester white box 165gr ammo, for plinking it's not that snappy. Then I load it up with 180gr +P ammo for my night stand.

                      What make of guns in .40 are you considering? People will be able to give you more input about the recoil of certain guns if you narrow it down to a few you like.
                      Last edited by North Bay Guy; 12-24-2013, 3:17 AM.

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                      • #86
                        Oliver_Charles
                        Banned
                        • Jan 2013
                        • 1196

                        ***
                        Last edited by Oliver_Charles; 12-25-2013, 9:24 PM.

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                        • #87
                          G21Shooter
                          Veteran Member
                          • Mar 2013
                          • 3577

                          .45 ACP is a much smoother shooting round, in my opinion than either 9mm or .40.

                          When shooting my G21 there is less muzzle jump than my 9mm Glocks, just a solid push to the rear. I can keep shots on target much faster.

                          All guns should be Glocks, all Glocks should be model 21s in .45 acp.

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                          • #88
                            riderr
                            Calguns Addict
                            • Sep 2013
                            • 6654

                            Originally posted by G21Shooter
                            .45 ACP is a much smoother shooting round, in my opinion than either 9mm
                            I think there is nobody else in the world, who'd agree with that

                            Comment

                            • #89
                              rman
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2012
                              • 2267

                              Originally posted by G21Shooter
                              .45 ACP is a much smoother shooting round, in my opinion than either 9mm or .40.






                              Originally posted by riderr
                              I think there is nobody else in the world, who'd agree with that
                              i think its smoother. i think it has a bigger felt recoil, however much flatter than 9 or 40


                              -Armand
                              Sent from my Apple Galaxy Note 7

                              Comment

                              • #90
                                OnTheFly
                                Junior Member
                                • Sep 2012
                                • 82

                                Not sure if this has been mentioned in the prior threads, but could the perceived recoil difference have something to do with .45acp being a subsonic round (~900fps) vs. 40s&w generally being supersonic (~1,200fps)?


                                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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