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Things I hate about the M&P 9c

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  • #16
    redcliff
    Calguns Addict
    • Feb 2008
    • 5676

    Originally posted by pastureofmuppets
    BTW - compressing a spring does nothing to increase wear, Google it, engineers will explain it better than I can.

    Short version... how low would you five year old car be?

    What does wear a spring is repeated compression and decompression.
    Most metallurgists agree with what you related. Many actual users and some metallurgists disagree. As I stated I was merely relaying what some M&P user have claimed work for them and make no argument for or against the practice.

    However, Wolff Springs feels that magazine springs kept loaded suffer more fatigue faster:

    5. How often should I change magazine spring? Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds?
    Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which the magazines are loaded up only when shooting.

    Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. In many older pistol designs, maximum capacity was not the always the goal such as with the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was room for more spring material in these guns which reduces overall stress and increases the usable life of the spring.

    More recently higher capacity magazine have become popular. These are designed to hold more rounds with less spring material often in the same space. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause it to fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but it is not always practical.

    In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded at all times, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs. Regular shooting of the pistol is the best way to be sure the springs are still functioning reliably.


    Some testing on airgun mainsprings http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537...++damage-++n-t

    "OBJECTIVE: To determine the effect on a mainspring if airgun is left cocked for an extended period.

    Preparation: Airgun was disassembled, thoroughly degreased, examined, lightly lubed with a mixture of Silicone oil & moly, and then reassembled.

    Procedure: After reassembly, airgun was fired 10 times to eliminate any excess lubricant which would contribute to dieseling. Muzzle velocity recorded at each period in time was the average of 5 shots. VO = prior to test; V1 = gun left cocked for 1 week, 24 hrs per day (168 hrs); V2 =gun left cocked for 2 weeks, 24 hrs/day (336 hrs); V4= left cocked for 4 weeks (672 hrs); V12 = left cocked for 12 weeks (2,016 hrs) and V24 = 24 weeks (4,032 hrs).

    At the end o each period, the gun as uncocked and left uncocked for 72 hrs to allow the spring to regain as much as possible of its original power (memory effect). The gun was cocked and uncocked a number of times to get the cylinder walls lubed and then 2 shots fired over a chrono. The average of these 2 shots were taken.

    All pellets have been sized and weighed then batched according to weight, so all pellets used in this test were of uniform size and weight. All airguns were .177 cal and all velocity readings are in feet per second.

    V0 V1 V2 V4 V12 V24 % Vel Decrease

    HW30 655 648 630 592 521 481 26.6

    HW50 705 682 678 640 565 513 27.2

    HW35 715 698 689 652 576 533 25.5

    R1 975 965 944 891 789 739 24.2

    Vulcan3 818 808 785 739 640 599 26.8

    Webley

    Hawk 655 638 630 589 519 476 27.3

    BSA Merc 695 679 668 630 552 511 26.5

    FWB124 795 774 770 728 645 596 25.0

    There were 2 spring failures (breakage) suffered by the Webley Hawk on weeks 4 and 12. No others suffered the same fate. I attribute spring failure to the absence of a spring guide in this make and model. While the percentage reduction in velocities varied, reduction was generally around 25% of original velocity taken prior to commencement of test.

    It should be noted that these percentage decreases are theoretically optimistic as the air gunner would more likely experience reductions in velocity greater than the statistics shown here. Dieseling, weight & size (diameter.) of pellets used, improper lubrication, temperature, conditions of usage etc. can all have an adverse impact on the life and power of a mainspring. This test does show that leaving a spring airgun cocked, no matter for how long, will adversely affect the life and power of any mainspring. Custom springs will be more resistant to decrease in power but the process will still occur over a longer period of time. I do not suggest that you change the ways you hunt but I point out, as Tom Gaylord has done very well, that be prepared to pay the price of higher maintenance."


    And finally, I can tell you from my own experience that drag race engine builders which use extremely high pressure springs to prevent valve float by large valves at very high rpm recommend backing off the rocker arms whenever possible to reduce spring fatigue.
    Last edited by redcliff; 09-25-2013, 7:05 PM.
    "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
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    although I suppose there are a few tanks which I owe an apology to for that remark"

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    • #17
      pastureofmuppets
      Senior Member
      • May 2013
      • 1805

      My experience has been in race cars and damper springs, where heat hasn't been an issue. I don't know what to tell you about the Wolff Springs.

      Not trying to get into a rat hole here... so I won't. Just letting you know I did read your post
      Last edited by pastureofmuppets; 09-25-2013, 7:31 PM.
      Host of the FAST OC podcast.

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      • #18
        SOAR79
        Veteran Member
        • Jan 2013
        • 2944

        Originally posted by BrianDavis
        What I hate about the M&P 9 C is that I dont have one
        lol

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        • #19
          INFAMOUS762X39
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2012
          • 1458

          Originally posted by Levetti
          I was torn between the G19 and the 9c. I ended up getting the 9c because I like the trigger better, the grip was smaller, and it looks cooler. If I keep getting hit in the forehead however it might be in the marketplace really soon.
          Interesting, I was just thinking about buying a MP9c the last few days. I remember shooting a friend's 9c awhile back and I really enjoyed it.

          Pre-Panic, I bought my first Glock a G19 Gen3 which had BTTF a few hundred rounds in. I updated the ejector and extractor with Gen4 OEM parts myself. Problem went away immediately. Now ejects casings at 4 o'clock with anything you feed it. I call it a G19 Gen3.5? Once you spend enough trigger time with one, it tends to grow on you. I am thinking about SSE'n a G19 Gen4 just because of AB-169.

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          • #20
            timmyb21
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2007
            • 1814

            In my experience (m&p 9 fs and c) they only eject brass back at you if you are limp wristing. Even just barely limp wristing. Choke up on that thing like it owes you money, Fire off a couple rounds and see if it still does it, then adjust your grip accordingly. Mine both eject fine when I shoot, and my wife hates them because she gets hot brass in her cleavage. You really need to control the pistol, and when you do it will perform just how you ask it to.
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            George Washington didn't use the 1st amendment to defeat the British...he shot them.

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            • #21
              Legasat
              Intergalactic Member
              CGN Contributor - Lifetime
              • Mar 2009
              • 4151

              Mine does not do that. If yours does, it is either your technique, or an extractor problem that needs to be fixed.
              ..

              .........STGC(SW)


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              • #22
                teflondog
                Veteran Member
                • Jun 2009
                • 4011

                I personally think the Glock is a superior design. With that being said, the M&P can be tuned into a great gun with Apex parts. I recommend the Apex DCAEK and failure resistant extractor.
                Originally posted by G. Michael Hopf
                Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.

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                • #23
                  Levetti
                  Member
                  • Jul 2011
                  • 331

                  So I took it back out to the range and had friends shoot it and they had the same issue; no brass down their shirts though. Then I tried different ammo and it magically stopped. When I went back to the original ammo I was shooting, it ejected into my face again. I rotated mags between remington fmj and PMC fmj and everysingle time the PMC ejected into my forehead and everytime the remington ejected normally. I'm thinking it is an ammo problem. The weird thing is that they are both the same grain and fmj

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                  • #24
                    theneko
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2008
                    • 1173

                    I never had an ejection (or other) issue with mine. Put in an Apex DCAEK and KKM barrel and I shot a 297/300 in Masaad Ayoob's MAG40 class. I only shoot 124g ammo by the way.
                    Last edited by theneko; 09-26-2013, 3:46 PM.
                    TheNeko

                    Comment

                    • #25
                      dpop24
                      Senior Member
                      • Feb 2012
                      • 1117

                      The mag disconnect has talked me out of picking up a 40c. Going to stick with my G27 despite not really liking much about it except it's ability to go bang every time I pull the trigger.

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                      • #26
                        JohnAmo2011
                        Member
                        • Sep 2013
                        • 170

                        Originally posted by Levetti
                        So I took it back out to the range and had friends shoot it and they had the same issue; no brass down their shirts though. Then I tried different ammo and it magically stopped. When I went back to the original ammo I was shooting, it ejected into my face again. I rotated mags between remington fmj and PMC fmj and everysingle time the PMC ejected into my forehead and everytime the remington ejected normally. I'm thinking it is an ammo problem. The weird thing is that they are both the same grain and fmj
                        Glad you narrowed it down to being an ammo issue.
                        Sight Replacement Service, PM me.

                        Comment

                        • #27
                          RobertMW
                          Senior Member
                          • Jul 2013
                          • 2117

                          Originally posted by pastureofmuppets
                          BTW - compressing a spring does nothing to increase wear, Google it, engineers will explain it better than I can.

                          Short version... how low would you five year old car be?

                          What does wear a spring is repeated compression and decompression.
                          Originally posted by redcliff
                          And finally, I can tell you from my own experience that drag race engine builders which use extremely high pressure springs to prevent valve float by large valves at very high rpm recommend backing off the rocker arms whenever possible to reduce spring fatigue.
                          It is the action of CREEP. In any stressed material, it will exhibit some amount of movement to relax the stress on itself. All of the atomic level interactions have enough energy to move about slowly into a state of lower energy. The three main variables for creep are temperature, material, and stress (force per area, not deformation)


                          So yes, leaving a magazine fully compressed and loaded for a long period of time will create a weaker spring. However, it is not a fatiguing mechanical action. Fatigue is ONLY repeated application of stress on an object. Not a constant force.

                          If you compress and unload a spring repeatedly, you will over time see the spring stiffness lower until it either breaks due to fatigue failure, or it will level out because you are no longer stressing the material over its fatigue limit.
                          Originally posted by kcbrown
                          I'm most famous for my positive mental attitude.

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                          • #28
                            DIRTMAN556
                            Member
                            • May 2012
                            • 124

                            Wear a cap?
                            DIRTMAN
                            .223/5.56x45mm - 7.62x39mm - .22 LR - 9mm - .40 S&W - 12 GA
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                            Clint Smith On Gun Safety [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6Y7LIJm5gI ]
                            1. All firearms are ALWAYS loaded.
                            2. Don't point the muzzle at anything you're not willing to destroy.
                            3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you're on the target and ready to shoot.
                            4. Be sure of your target and backstop.

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                            • #29
                              kf6tac
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 1779

                              My M&P9C gave me brass to the face when it was brand new out of the box, but after a few hundred rounds it faded to being just weak extraction off at about 3-4 o'clock, and a few hundred rounds past that it was extracting properly. I think it's just extra sensitive to technique when it's new, when the springs are still new and stiff. At some point after it smoothed out I also put in the Apex Failure Resistant Extractor, and it's been running great on that.


                              Statements I make on this forum should not be construed as giving legal advice or forming an attorney-client relationship.

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                              • #30
                                hunterb
                                CGN/CGSSA Contributor
                                CGN Contributor
                                • Jun 2011
                                • 3796

                                RE: Brass ejecting into forehead:

                                Stop shooting your gun sideways like a gangster rapper

                                I kid, I kid...
                                Originally posted by johnthomas
                                ...The hardest part getting rid of crap is getting started.

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