Intrafamilial transfer

[roki]

So, question:

My brother lives in VA, and has two 1911s he'd like to give to me and my father (and his father, of course). He is a VA resident, my father and I are CA residents. Currently, he would have to ship them to a CA FFL, where we would each have the 10-day waiting period and DROS fees. Is this correct?

Also, he is considering moving back to CA (permanently) this year. If he moves back, can he drive his two 1911s back with him? At that point, can he transfer both to our father (OpLaw x2), and then my father could transfer one to me (OpLaw x1), and pay all included fees?

[Librarian]

So, question:

My brother lives in VA, and has two 1911s he'd like to give to me and my father (and his father, of course). He is a VA resident, my father and I are CA residents. Currently, he would have to ship them to a CA FFL, where we would each have the 10-day waiting period and DROS fees. Is this correct?

Also, he is considering moving back to CA (permanently) this year. If he moves back, can he drive his two 1911s back with him? At that point, can he transfer both to our father (OpLaw x2), and then my father could transfer one to me (OpLaw x1), and pay all included fees?

Yes to both. BUT ...

Detail - 1 OPLAW form, 1 $19 fee for both guns on son to father transfer. This can replace the new resident handgun registration - the new resident is allowed to transfer instead of register.

And, see http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Tr...us_work-around

[SMR510]

Librarian correct me if I am wrong but both would have to go to the father first then the father could transfer one to the OP. Brother to brother is not a linear up and down on the family tree as it must be for an intrafamiliar transfer.

[roki]

That's correct. 1 OpLaw with both 1911s from my brother to my father, then my father would do an OpLaw with 1 1911 to me.

Would this option not require going through an FFL/DROS? Or would it still?

[Librarian]

Librarian correct me if I am wrong but both would have to go to the father first then the father could transfer one to the OP. Brother to brother is not a linear up and down on the family tree as it must be for an intrafamiliar transfer.

Yes - but there's a problem with that plan, thus the link to the wiki.

That's correct. 1 OpLaw with both 1911s from my brother to my father, then my father would do an OpLaw with 1 1911 to me.

Would this option not require going through an FFL/DROS? Or would it still?

Better if it went PPT to you from father. Highly unlikely that it would be detected, and I'd like to think DOJ has better things to do than prosecute a father and his two sons for attempting to evade the Roster or the transfer-through-an-FFL requirement, but there is some exposure, and in my judgement the extra $16 plus the 10-day wait is cheap insurance.

[roki]

Follow-up question:

One of the 1911s is a SA 1911 Range Officer, which is still off-roster (if I recall). I know the 2nd scenario would still allow this transfer to take place (brother moves back to CA, transfers to father with OPLAW), but would the first scenario not work, because the FFL cannot receive the off-roster handgun from out of state, even though it's an interstate PPT?

The other is rostered.

I'm just trying to understand the law here, not just for this transfer (most likely going to ship/DROS the rostered one, and hold off on a move for the off-roster).

This next scenario is complicated, but the Range Officer being off-roster is complicating this.

My fiancee is finishing school this semester in Virginia (VA resident, VA Driver's License), and moving here to CA in July. She could purchase the two 1911s from my brother (private party sales in VA are very, very easy. CA should take notes.), and then drive them out to CA as the legal owner in July. The question I have is, once we're married, are they community property? i.e. I could transfer with OPLAW the Range Officer to my father? Or, she could transfer both to me? We could PPT/DROS as well, at that point, since it would already be here. Just wondering if that's necessary, or if, upon getting married, they become community property? The law seems confusing a bit about this, but I was under the impression CA was a community property state.

[Librarian]

Follow-up question:

1) One of the 1911s is a SA 1911 Range Officer, which is still off-roster (if I recall). I know the 2nd scenario would still allow this transfer to take place (brother moves back to CA, transfers to father with OPLAW), but would the first scenario not work, because the FFL cannot receive the off-roster handgun from out of state, even though it's an interstate PPT?

The other is rostered.

I'm just trying to understand the law here, not just for this transfer (most likely going to ship/DROS the rostered one, and hold off on a move for the off-roster).

This next scenario is complicated, but the Range Officer being off-roster is complicating this.

2) My fiancee is finishing school this semester in Virginia (VA resident, VA Driver's License), and moving here to CA in July. She could purchase the two 1911s from my brother (private party sales in VA are very, very easy. CA should take notes.), and then drive them out to CA as the legal owner in July. The question I have is, once we're married, are they community property? i.e. I could transfer with OPLAW the Range Officer to my father?

3) Or, she could transfer both to me? We could PPT/DROS as well, at that point, since it would already be here. Just wondering if that's necessary, or if, upon getting married, they become community property? The law seems confusing a bit about this, but I was under the impression CA was a community property state.

Merged so I can answer in 1 place...

1) interstate intrafamilial is exempt from the Roster; not all FFLs know this, but more are learning.

2) No, they don't become community property. A very superficial description of CP is that separate property of the partners, what they bring into the marriage, remains separate property UNLESS something written is executed to change that.

3) Yes - OPLAW again, and that's the 'something written' for (2).

(2) works - provided you realize an intelligent fiancee might just want to keep them!

But, she would have to register the handguns as a 'new resident' within 60 days of getting them to CA - $19 each.

To summarize:

Brother moves back to CA, transfers 1 handgun to Father (OPLAW, $19).
Brother transfers 1 handgun to brother-already-in-CA (PPT, $35).
No new-resident registration required, because selling or other legal transfer is an option.

Fiancee buys guns from brother-in-VA.
Fiancee moves back to CA, registers guns as new resident ($19 each).
You and fiancee marry (Congrats!); wife gives both handguns to husband (OPLAW, $19).
Husband/son gives 1 handgun to Father (OPLAW, $19)

[roki]

Thank you so much! This has been very helpful!

[mnmngnj]

I have a similar family transfer scenario like the one above if anyone can help. I purchased a Sig 1911 Carry with a 4.2" barrel (1911CA-45-SSS which is apparently off roster) for my mother via an online auction. This auction house is in Florida near where my mother lives. She did an FFL transfer to receive the gun at a local gun shop near her so she legally owns the gun. She decided it was "too much gun" for her and decided to give it to me. She flew across country with the gun and gave it to me and has already returned back to Florida. I am filling out the CADOJ 'Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction (OPLAW?) right now.
My question is this. As I stated before, the 1911 in question is an off roster. Am I going to have a problem with this OPLAW transaction or should I mail it in (+$19) without worry? Accurate information regarding this would be extremely helpful. Thanks in advance.

[roki]

I'll let librarian give you the definitive answer, but I believe you have a problem at the moment. If she is a FL resident, and you're a CA resident, the OPLAW is insufficient. Interstate handgun transfers most go through an FFL (licensed in the state of the transferee--you) even between family members.

[morrcarr67]

I have a similar family transfer scenario like the one above if anyone can help. I purchased a Sig 1911 Carry with a 4.2" barrel (1911CA-45-SSS which is apparently off roster) for my mother via an online auction. This auction house is in Florida near where my mother lives. She did an FFL transfer to receive the gun at a local gun shop near her so she legally owns the gun. She decided it was "too much gun" for her and decided to give it to me. She flew across country with the gun and gave it to me and has already returned back to Florida. I am filling out the CADOJ 'Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction (OPLAW?) right now.
My question is this. As I stated before, the 1911 in question is an off roster. Am I going to have a problem with this OPLAW transaction or should I mail it in (+$19) without worry? Accurate information regarding this would be extremely helpful. Thanks in advance.

Your biggest problem is that you and your Mom just committed Federal Felonies.

Since 1968 all firearms transfers between residents of different state must be done by an FFL in the home state of the new owner.

There is NO Federal Exemption for Intrafamiliar transfers.

[mnmngnj]

Thank you so much for the information and quick response. I definitely want to stay within the law so I am shopping for an airline ticket for my mother to come out this weekend and do this properly. Thank you so much for the information. I was given mis-information (by someone not on calguns obviously) prior to her coming out to visit. I am so appreciative that I found this thread and that there are others like you out there to help.
Is there a more economical way to move forward with this in a legal format to complete this transaction legally? For example shipping of the firearm rather than a person commuting? Any advise to help me on the right side of the law would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[morrcarr67]

Thank you so much for the information and quick response. I definitely want to stay within the law so I am shopping for an airline ticket for my mother to come out this weekend and do this properly. Thank you so much for the information. I was given mis-information (by someone not on calguns obviously) prior to her coming out to visit. I am so appreciative that I found this thread and that there are others like you out there to help.
Is there a more economical way to move forward with this in a legal format to complete this transaction legally? For example shipping of the firearm rather than a person commuting? Any advise to help me on the right side of the law would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Seeing as the gun is not on the roster you will need to find a LGS that knows that ALL Intrafamilar transfes are roster exempt. Mo and you will go to that shop and she will tell the dealer that she is your Mom and she is giving you the gun.

This is NOT a PPT. The dealer can and will charge whatever they want.

[SMR510]

Thank you so much for the information and quick response. I definitely want to stay within the law so I am shopping for an airline ticket for my mother to come out this weekend and do this properly. Thank you so much for the information. I was given mis-information (by someone not on calguns obviously) prior to her coming out to visit. I am so appreciative that I found this thread and that there are others like you out there to help.
Is there a more economical way to move forward with this in a legal format to complete this transaction legally? For example shipping of the firearm rather than a person commuting? Any advise to help me on the right side of the law would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

It could be shipped by her to your FFL with a letter stating that she is your mother and she is gifting you this gun. Also she should mention that no money has exchanged hands to solidify that it is a gift. I believe she also needs to include a copy of her ID in the box.

Of course this is complicated by the fact that it is already here.

[mnmngnj]

Would it be appropriate to ship to an FFL near her and then she can turn around and ship it back to my LGS (who initially gave me this mis-information btw) with the above requirements?

I will, of course, share the knowledge bequeathed to me by my fellow calgunners to the aforementioned LGS before it comes back to me. This will hopefully ensure two things. First, a smooth transaction on my end when the firearm returns. Second, that no one else is led down this path and given flawed information. When in doubt again, I will be sure to check here first for my advice. Thanks everyone.