Handgun Flowchart Omission?

[sreiter]

I can see it now.

did you steal this handgun ? no then legal, yes, then illegal......

Aren't you the clever one. Yes, because thats what the AW flowchart lists as it first logic flow decision

[sreiter]

I designed the handgun and shotgun flowcharts so that you could determine if a certain firearm that you had or thought about getting or building, was legal to possess, not for how to acquire it. there are too many ways that you can get off-roster handgun for it to be included in the flowchart. the flowcharts are already 4 pages of material and those that are printing them out to pass out at gunshows and shops want it trimmed down to 2 pages (1 double-sided print) and you want more info on it? It'd be 6+ pages if it dealt with every off-roster and roster-exempt acquisition method.

there is a lot of info on it that has nothing to do with handguns (such as the roberti - rossie info)...that might be a good place to trim the fat if you want it smaller

[kf6tac]

there is a lot of info on it that has nothing to do with handguns (such as the roberti - rossie info)...that might be a good place to trim the fact if you want it smaller

Roberti-Roos covers handguns both by name and by feature. The portions of Roberti-Roos that are cited on the handgun flowchart are the portions that pertain to handguns.

[ke6guj]

interesting. i thought it followed the format of the OLL flowchart which is all about getting something that we didnt have/thought we could never get, as opposed to what can i do with something i already have ...

I just looked at all three flowcharts, Redhorse's and mine. They are all titled as Identification flowcharts, not acquisition flowcharts.

the rifle flowchart doesn't tell you how you can acquire a CA-legal rifle, it tells you if the configuration that you have or want is legal or not. It doesn't tell that you need to find a middle-man FFL to convert that AW you want into a neutered CA-version. Or that you can buy or build a lower and then configure it into a CA-version.

Roberti-Roos covers handguns both by name and by feature. The portions of Roberti-Roos that are cited on the handgun flowchart are the portions that pertain to handguns.

exactly, we only listed the portions of the name ban that dealt with handguns.

[sreiter]

I just looked at all three flowcharts, Redhorse's and mine. They are all titled as Identification flowcharts, not acquisition flowcharts.

the rifle flowchart doesn't tell you how you can acquire a CA-legal rifle, it tells you if the configuration that you have or want is legal or not. It doesn't tell that you need to find a middle-man FFL to convert that AW you want into a neutered CA-version. Or that you can buy or build a lower and then configure it into a CA-version.

exactly, we only listed the portions of the name ban that dealt with handguns.

your flowchart has all sort of info on assault weapons, references to harlott v county of kings, detachable mags, SBS, machine guns, destructive devices, etc. Not really pistol centric.

Interesting enough, you spend the time to tell people HOW TO ACQUIRE NFA

the aw flowchart also asks in Q5 is the the weapon on the roster R&R list

Most importantly it DOES tell you how to acquire in that it asks "does it have a detachable mag, and goes about explaining how to circumvent detachable mag situations ie how radlocks, prince 50's etc cause your weapon to no longer have a detachable mag

it also shows monster man , etc to get around the pistol grip rule

[JeremyS]

your flowchart has all sort of info on assault weapons, references to harlott v county of kings, detachable mags, SBS, machine guns, destructive devices, etc. Not really pistol centric.

You're just wrong here, man. A pistol can be an assault weapon. Whether a magazine is detachable or not in a pistol can directly determine whether it's an assault weapon or not. A Taurus Judge, which is a pistol, is considered by CA to be an SBS. Pistols can be machine guns. ALL of these things can and do relate to pistols and they absolutely belong in the flowchart. You started this thread by pointing out what you incorrectly feel is an omission, and now you're suggesting perfectly germane material be removed?

The things you are reading as ways to acquire a gun are not specifically for that. The flowchart is just saying what is legal and what is illegal. It does not matter if you have the gun already or are thinking of buying it or just curious, or what. It tells you what is illegal and how to make it legal if there's a way to modify it to become legal. This can help prevent somebody from accidently breaking an AW law on a gun they already own (see my example of putting a threaded barrel into a semi-auto pistol from an earlier post). It can help prevent somebody from trying to order up a gun that they will not be able to DROS in CA and costing them time and money as their FFL has to return it to whoever they bought it from out of state. The flowchart is NOT meant to be any sort of instructional on how you can acquire a gun. It's just a visual aid to help navigate the complicated text of the CA gun laws (especially the AW laws) so everyone can make sure they remain within the law.

[kf6tac]

your flowchart has all sort of info on assault weapons, references to harlott v county of kings, detachable mags, SBS, machine guns, destructive devices, etc. Not really pistol centric.

The portion of the Harrott opinion applies to all semi-automatic firearms that are banned by name, and therefore is relevant to the rifle, pistol, and shotgun flowcharts. The destructive device statute is relevant because California deems some pistols to be destructive devices (e.g., the Taurus Judge) because of their ability to fire shotgun ammunition. As for the reference to SBS in the definitions section, I guess they could reclaim 1 line of space by deleting it, but really?

Interesting enough, you spend the time to tell people HOW TO ACQUIRE NFA

The only reference I see to NFA on the handgun flowchart is in the section defining acronyms. Again, we're going to make a fuss over 1 line of text?

the aw flowchart also asks in Q5 is the the weapon on the roster R&R list

The Roberti-Roos list is different from the Handgun Roster. Anything that is on the Roberti-Roos list is illegal to possess (unless it was registered as an AW before the law kicked in). Stuff not on the handgun roster is still legal to possess, unless it breaks some other law. As ke6guj has said, the flowcharts are all about what is legal to possess.

Most importantly it DOES tell you how to acquire in that it asks "does it have a detachable mag, and goes about explaining how to circumvent detachable mag situations ie how radlocks, prince 50's etc cause your weapon to no longer have a detachable mag

it also shows monster man , etc to get around the pistol grip rule

These are criteria for legally possessing. Admittedly, you cannot legally acquire something that you cannot legally possess, since acquisition requires you to take possession, so in a way they are also criteria for acquiring. But the point here again is that these flowcharts deal with legality of possession/ownership, and a firearm that does not meet the statutory requirements is illegal to possess. A firearm that does not meet the handgun roster requirements is still legal to possess.

[sreiter]

The only reference I see to NFA on the handgun flowchart is in the section defining acronyms. Again, we're going to make a fuss over 1 line of text?

(M2) How can an individual legally acquire NFA firearms?
Basically, there are 2 ways that an individual (who is not prohibited
by Federal, State, or local law from receiving or possessing
firearms) may legally acquire NFA firearms:
1. By transfer after approval by ATF of a registered weapon from its
lawful owner residing in the same State as the transferee.
2. By obtaining prior approval from ATF to make NFA firearms.
[27 CFR 479.62-66 and 479.84-86 ]

[sreiter]

The Roberti-Roos list is different from the Handgun Roster. Anything that is on the Roberti-Roos list is illegal to possess (unless it was registered as an AW before the law kicked in). Stuff not on the handgun roster is still legal to possess, unless it breaks some other law. As ke6guj has said, the flowcharts are all about what is legal to possess.

I would submit they are NOT legal to possess/purchase unless you modify them with a SSE and re-modify them back, or bring them in when you move here. that is the intent of the law

just like a OLL configured centerfire rifle is not legal without a mag-lock,

[sreiter]

The portion of the Harrott opinion applies to all semi-automatic firearms that are banned by name, and therefore is relevant to the rifle, pistol, and shotgun flowcharts. The destructive device statute is relevant because California deems some pistols to be destructive devices (e.g., the Taurus Judge) because of their ability to fire shotgun ammunition. As for the reference to SBS in the definitions section, I guess they could reclaim 1 line of space by deleting it, but really?

I would submit rather then a paragraph describing what a DD is, a logic decision "does it fire a shotgun shell " -Y-> illegal , violates DD law

Again, this would cut down number of pages, if that is a concern, as you stated

[ke6guj]

your flowchart has all sort of info on assault weapons, references to harlott v county of kings, detachable mags, SBS, machine guns, destructive devices, etc. Not really pistol centric.

the reason all those things are mentioned are that a pistol in question can fall under any of those catagories. they need to be covered to make sure the item is not illegal.

Interesting enough, you spend the time to tell people HOW TO ACQUIRE NFA

true

the aw flowchart also asks in Q5 is the the weapon on the roster R&R list

right, beause a R-R rostered firearm is illegal unless registered as a RAW. the flowchart doesn't then tell you to buy an Off-list receiver and swap it for the listed receiver. it doesn't tell you to see if you can try to get a CADOJ DW permit. It does tell you that you can try to get a military permit (out of date for the most part), but that was Redhorse's choice to do so.

Most importantly it DOES tell you how to acquire in that it asks "does it have a detachable mag, and goes about explaining how to circumvent detachable mag situations ie how radlocks, prince 50's etc cause your weapon to no longer have a detachable mag

it also shows monster man , etc to get around the pistol grip rule

you see it as "explaining how to circumvent a rule", I see it as an an explanation of the rules. we aren't telling you to install a maglock or a gripwrap, but a smart person can see that usage of those items can make a firearm comply with the law that might otherwise not.


the bottom line is that I designed it be a flowchart dealing with the legality of the fiream in quesiton, not to deal with every possible method of acquisition.

that is why this is included inthe flowchart.


SSE, intra-family transfers, homebuilds, and PPTs are pretty well known and I don't see the need to include it in the flowchart. AOW acquisition is far less known in CA, that is why I included as small blurb. And that is at the very bottom of page 4.

[JeremyS]

I would submit they are NOT legal to possess/purchase unless you modify them...

That would make you wrong. The Roster has nothing to do with possession, and only what you can purchase from an FFL. Guns drop off the roster all of the time when companies stop paying the yearly renewal fee. Does that make them illegal for you to possess all of the sudden? No. Can you buy a gun that isn't on the Roster from another individual who already owns it without modifying the gun? Yes. Why? Because you aren't buying from an FFL and the gun is completely and totally legal to possess regardless of its status on the Roster. Not sure how else to say this, but the Roster ONLY controls what an FFL can sell to a citizen. In no way, whatsoever, it is a list of guns that are legal to possess, therefore making the assumption that guns not on it are illegal to possess. That is completely out of the scope of the Roster and you're giving it power it does not have nor seek to have. Since the Roster controls sales and acquisition from an FFL, it is totally separate from the flowchart, which explains legalities of possession. Roster has NO bearing on possession. Not sure why this is confusing.