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My how handgun training has changed

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  • unusedusername
    Veteran Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 4124

    My how handgun training has changed

    There is a vintage FBI video going around from 1969.



    The positions they trained people to shoot from were... vintage?

    I can't believe they trained people to try to fire from the hip. You can't hit anything like that.

    I guess tactics have changed quite a bit from the olden days.
  • #2
    AE102
    Member
    • Jul 2012
    • 223

    Yeah, interesting to watch that then watch Paul Castle's Evolution of the gun right afterwards:



    Now about that stance....reminds me of this

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    • #3
      scootle
      CGN/CGSSA Contributor
      CGN Contributor
      • Oct 2010
      • 2702

      things didn't evolve much until Jack Weaver came around and the techniques evolved (via Col Cooper) and gained traction as:



      before that, shooting from the hip was sort of the status quo...
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      • #4
        9mmepiphany
        Calguns Addict
        • Jul 2008
        • 8075

        Yup, the academy staff when I started in LE in '79 were still teaching the FBI style...hard to believe anyone really believed holding your fist in front of your heart would deflect a bullet.

        A little way into my career we changed over to the Weaver and we even taught the Speed Rock for close shots...that's where I saw someone miss a B-27 from 3' away.

        About half way though my career, we changed over to the Modern Isosceles and that brought in a lot of improvement to qualification scores
        ...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale

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        • #5
          zfields
          CGN Contributor
          • Aug 2010
          • 13658

          Originally posted by 9mmepiphany
          Yup, the academy staff when I started in LE in '79 were still teaching the FBI style...hard to believe anyone really believed holding your fist in front of your heart would deflect a bullet.

          A little way into my career we changed over to the Weaver and we even taught the Speed Rock for close shots...that's where I saw someone miss a B-27 from 3' away.

          About half way though my career, we changed over to the Modern Isosceles and that brought in a lot of improvement to qualification scores
          Speed rock? Mind elaborating?
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          • #6
            'Rush'
            Member
            • Jul 2012
            • 110

            Um, I never knew about the bullet ricochet being parallel to the ground O_o!!

            Comment

            • #7
              elSquid
              In Memoriam
              • Aug 2007
              • 11844

              Originally posted by scootle
              things didn't evolve much until Jack Weaver came around and the techniques evolved (via Col Cooper) and gained traction as:


              I love that video - funny stuff!

              Originally posted by scootle
              before that, shooting from the hip was sort of the status quo...




              -- Michael

              Comment

              • #8
                Dhena81
                Veteran Member
                • May 2010
                • 4587

                Originally posted by unusedusername
                There is a vintage FBI video going around from 1969.


                The positions they trained people to shoot from were... vintage?

                I can't believe they trained people to try to fire from the hip. You can't hit anything like that.

                I guess tactics have changed quite a bit from the olden days.
                Must have been the Westerns

                Comment

                • #9
                  BamBam-31
                  CGN/CGSSA Contributor
                  • Dec 2005
                  • 5318

                  Originally posted by zfields
                  Speed rock? Mind elaborating?
                  I'm guessing that's where you draw, rotate the gun forward at holster level, lean back, then shoot.
                  sigpic

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    9mmepiphany
                    Calguns Addict
                    • Jul 2008
                    • 8075

                    Yup, pretty much.

                    It was based on the old Quick Draw technique...and preceded the current Position of Retention (Position 2 in the 4 step draw)...and is what I consider true point shooting (where you don't see the gun at all)

                    You drew and rotated the muzzle toward the target as soon as the muzzle cleared the top of the holster. At the same time, you leaned backwards from the hips to bring the muzzle up faster...pressing the trigger as your muzzle leveled.

                    It is really quite fast and pretty accurate with some practice...I recently used it in an IDPA match on a target at about 4 feet...the hard part was transitioning between two targets. The problem is that it throws you off balance unless you really know what you're trying to do...most newbies will miss to the left off the target

                    Looks something like this
                    ...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      zfields
                      CGN Contributor
                      • Aug 2010
                      • 13658

                      Originally posted by 9mmepiphany
                      Yup, pretty much.

                      It was based on the old Quick Draw technique...and preceded the current Position of Retention (Position 2 in the 4 step draw)...and is what I consider true point shooting (where you don't see the gun at all)

                      You drew and rotated the muzzle toward the target as soon as the muzzle cleared the top of the holster. At the same time, you leaned backwards from the hips to bring the muzzle up faster...pressing the trigger as your muzzle leveled.

                      It is really quite fast and pretty accurate with some practice...I recently used it in an IDPA match on a target at about 4 feet...the hard part was transitioning between two targets. The problem is that it throws you off balance unless you really know what you're trying to do...most newbies will miss to the left off the target

                      Looks something like this
                      Had a feeling thats what it was. I've heard it called a few different names, never speed rock.

                      Thanks for the explination.
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                      Comment

                      • #12
                        9mmepiphany
                        Calguns Addict
                        • Jul 2008
                        • 8075

                        The name comes from the Cowboy Quick Draw competitions that was so popular in the 60's and was part of the Modern Technique, taught at Gunsite, under that name.

                        When Bill Rogers introduced it to the FBI, that's what they called it too.

                        I didn't think anyone was still teaching it anymore. I thought most schools were teaching shooting from the position of retention.
                        Last edited by 9mmepiphany; 11-15-2012, 12:21 AM.
                        ...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          zfields
                          CGN Contributor
                          • Aug 2010
                          • 13658

                          Gotcha, Retention position is what I normally hear connected with that style, cept' with the goofy arm covering your head going on.
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                          • #14
                            BamBam-31
                            CGN/CGSSA Contributor
                            • Dec 2005
                            • 5318

                            Hey, I think I found one of 9mmepiphany's old Academy pics!

                            sigpic

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Lugiahua
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2011
                              • 1576

                              Originally posted by 9mmepiphany
                              The name comes from the Cowboy Quick Draw competitions that was so popular in the 60's and was part of the Modern Technique, taught at Gunsite, under that name.

                              When Bill Rogers introduced it to the FBI, that's what they called it too.

                              I didn't think anyone was still teaching it anymore. I thought most schools were teaching shooting from the position of retention.
                              They still teach it in Frontsight as far as I know. They use the 5 steps drawing, and speed rock/point shooting is the step three.

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