Legality of removing/disabling lock on S&W revolver?

[bwiese]

The paranoia about such modded safeties in a legit shoot is unnecessary.

If you have a legit shoot, the "gun didn't accidentally go off": you did intentionally pull the trigger to STOP A THREAT TO LIFE/LIMB.[I'm sure there are many folks who got themselves in jail for saying a shoot was 'accidental' ("uh, it just went off") instead of justifiably/intentional.]

As such, presence/absence of safety devices will not factor in - unless it's so egregious that you completely took all safeties off your 1911, or cut the front trigger guard off your wheelgun ("Fitz special"). Even then, that doesn't take away from the legitimacy of the shoot.

In such a case, I doubt the DA/crime lab is even gonna look at the minutiae of the gun if there's no assertions of "I didn't do it" or "that's not my gun" or "it went off accidentally".

We're all pretty much aware here of what DAs and cops know about guns, and I'd bet that it would scoot right over their head if someone 'deburred' that safety peg inside a newer S&W wheelgun with a 'lock'.

[TMC]

Don't grid it off just remove the parts. It won't change how the gun functions and you can reinstall if you want to sell the gun. You will have to remove the hammer and cylinder release to get it out without destroying the springs.

With that said there is really no reason to remove it, it doesn't drag on any internal parts so it doesn't effect trigger pull. It is impossible to engage it with out the key, even from inside, so its not going to go on safe by accident or from shooting.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

The paranoia about such modded safeties in a legit shoot is unnecessary.

Absolutely 100% - in my one and only SD shoot, I was sued by the mutt. His lawyer put up the 'negligent discharge of a firearm, causing great bodily injury' BS and I was very happy to be able to sign off on a affidavit saying 'No, no I absolutely intended to shoot your client'.
So from that standpoint I agree completely; but what about a civil case - here's an example (and don't tell me it's far fetched - we've all heard and read about similar cases). Let's say John Smith has his local gunsmith remove the offending lock from his trusty S&W 686. And then John Smith goes home, load s it and stuffs it in a night stand.
Then, days/weeks/years later his niece/nephew/cousin/whatever finds the gun and someone gets killed.
Aside form the legal ramification of John Smith being charged under Cali law; what are the odds that some ambulance chaser says "Why John, I know you're grieving, but that gunsmith is liable as well - if only the lock were still installed in the gun, you *might* have locked it, and this whole unfortunate situation *could* have been avoided. <insert cash register sounds here>.

I see that as pretty likely given the litigious nature of our society. Yeah yeah we all know it's complete BS, but how many of these have we seen? Enough to make me think it's possible.

[Overkill]

With that said there is really no reason to remove it, it doesn't drag on any internal parts so it doesn't effect trigger pull. It is impossible to engage it with out the key, even from inside, so its not going to go on safe by accident or from shooting.

Therein lies the point of contention. There have been some noted lock failures that rendered the revolvers useless. For a pistol being used for protection, this potential causes alarm.

I recently purchased a S&W 442, and am strongly considering removing the nub from the internal safety. S&W will sell you a new one, so it would be possible to return the pistol to factory specs if you desire to sell the pistol.

[TMC]

Therein lies the point of contention. There have been some noted lock failures that rendered the revolvers useless. For a pistol being used for protection, this potential causes alarm.

I recently purchased a S&W 442, and am strongly considering removing the nub from the internal safety. S&W will sell you a new one, so it would be possible to return the pistol to factory specs if you desire to sell the pistol.

It must have been a faulty part just like any other. A firing pin can break, the cylinder stop can crack, the hand spring can break or become dislodged, and on and on. Those and others will cause the gun to fail. Just because its a safety doesn't mean its more likely to go bad than any other part in the gun.

[dfletcher]

Ah yes, the infamous 'waiver of liability claim' letter.
Civil trial lawyers love those.

Now if the document has been prepared by a lawyer, and then signed by the owner of the firearm, that might have more weight. I'd sill be wary though.

What you may be alluding to in part - accurately I believe, is that a contract between two parties is not necessarily binding on a 3rd party. Which is to say the injured 3rd party can still go after the gunsmith; the gunsmith may then go after the customer if the "waiver" requires him to hold harmless & indemnify the gunsmith.

I think a waiver that in effect says "If I hurt myself or someone else I am solely responsible" is probably worth that rather thin "tissue" paper on which it should be written.

So far as the lock being disabled and the gun later used in a deliberate and legally defensible shooting, I don't think it would be a factor. But I could be wrong, who knows what creative circumstance an Atty can conjure up.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

^ Exactly correct.

[chsk9]

&quot;fixing&quot; S&amp;W safety

I have seen the photo's of grinding down the safety but have not located any website that specifically details this modification. Anyone have information on this?

While browsing an article about the model 60-15 (*), I came across the below interesting picture and tidbits. Would it be California legal for me - the owner - to do this work or have a gunsmith do it?



(just curious, no current plans to go after one of my revolvers with a grinder )

==
(*) http://www.snubnose.info/docs/model60-15.htm

[Ech0Sierra]

It must have been a faulty part just like any other. A firing pin can break, the cylinder stop can crack, the hand spring can break or become dislodged, and on and on. Those and others will cause the gun to fail. Just because its a safety doesn't mean its more likely to go bad than any other part in the gun.

The odds of a gun failing is directly proportional to the square of all the parts in the gun. The most reliable tool is the one with only one part. If you can eliminate all nonessential parts, the gun is more reliable.
Edit: directly proportional

[Knifemaker]

It must have been a faulty part just like any other. A firing pin can break, the cylinder stop can crack, the hand spring can break or become dislodged, and on and on. Those and others will cause the gun to fail. Just because its a safety doesn't mean its more likely to go bad than any other part in the gun.

Its not a faulty part going bad, its a known problem that has happened more than once. On the ultra light weight Ti and SC with hot +P amd magnum loads, when fired sometimes the recoil is kicking up the lock tab enough to stop the gun from firing again. This is a serious problem for a gun carried for self defense. There was aso one instance where the lock was shaken into a jammed position from pocket carry so even the first shot was not possible.

If you want to do this, I would learn to do it yourself. If you are at all mechanically enclined you can do it with practise. I personally would replace the modified part before I ever sold the gun after it was modded.

[packnrat]

is it possible to buy a "pre lock" part to install in said pistol?

best deal is to just not modify any item on a gun/car/etc, lawyers love this as it makes there job richer...$$$$.


search the used gun market for a pre lock ver.





.

[chsk9]

yes- it is possible- however I just picked up a 629 classic 5" and silly me- I was not aware that there were issues with S&W locks prior to purchasing it so I'm only looking for a quick fix or removal of the lock since it is going to be carried in the great outdoors. Anyone have experience removing or moding the lock?

[John Browning]

First, pre-lock parts (that matter as far as the lock is concerned, i.e. hammer) will not fit into a revolver with the lock installed. There is a little channel that the lug that is circled fits into on the hammer when the lock is activated. You can grind of that little lug with a dremel and leave the rest of the lock parts in place. If you ever need to restore the locking feature, it is a simple swap of a part Smith will send you for free. You will not void the Smith warranty, and if you ever send it to them for work, they will "fix" the lock for you.

The lock is a VERY problematic and poor design, I'd highly recommend removing it or having someone else remove it for you. I will not buy a Smith with the lock as it is designed today, and I've told Smith as much in a long conversation with their sales and customer service departments.

[Equalizer2]

There are fourteen pages of lock problems, on the Smith & Wesson Web Site.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/500103904/m/228102718

[Ech0Sierra]

Ok... I think it's time for Mr. Dremel to throw Mr. Lock out of Club S&W. Should I do it myself or find a smith?