Difference between race pistol and regular pistol

[Excelsior]

I think you're confused. I'm not talking about SC. You're talking about guns and comparing apples to oranges. Do you understand how what the minimum power floor is for USPSA Limited major and Open? This is a simple matter of math. USPSA open guns and limited major guns don't shoot reduced loads. Period. I don't really know why you came out with the STI v. Volquartsen comparison...that really had nothing to do with anything.

It's you that is either in denial or cannot comprehend what I am writing. Read this carefully. When I show up at an SC match there are typically 40 or so other shooters. There are several different classes -- everything from Open centerfire "race guns" to single action revolvers and everything in between. Shooters often bring more than one gun and compete in more than one class. Now focus, here it come:

If I take the unsorted results from a match without taking into consideration the different classes (comprende?) the fastest scores for the match will be shot by top shooters shooting .22LR semi-autos. Do you understand that?

In fact in many cases some very fast shooters will also shoot the match using a centerfire race gun and their aggregate time for the match will be slower than they one they recorded shooting a .22LR firearm, "period."

...People need to get out of the mindset that competition shooters can only shoot in competition. I run competitively, but I would imagine I would still know how to run fast if I was running for my life with a crazed crackhead chasing me. Kind of like how Mike Tyson could still whoop some arse outside of a boxing ring. Just because you're good at a game, doesn't mean you're only good with your skills within the context of that game.

I didn't suggest that.

[CalTeacher]

It's you that is either in denial or cannot comprehend what I am writing. Read this carefully. When I show up at an SC match there are typically 40 or so other shooters. There are several different classes -- everything from Open centerfire "race guns" to single action revolvers and everything in between. Shooters often bring more than one gun and compete in more than one class. Now focus, here it come:

If I take the unsorted results from a match without taking into consideration the different classes (comprende?) the fastest scores for the match will be shot by top shooters shooting .22LR semi-autos. Do you understand that?

In fact in many cases some very fast shooters will also shoot the match using a centerfire race gun and their aggregate time for the match will be slower than they one they recorded shooting a .22LR firearm, "period."



I didn't suggest that.

Here are the problems with what you're saying:

1. You're comparing centerfire open guns to rimfire guns from different disciplines. Apples to oranges. But if you want to make that comparison...

2. Speed is one of three components you need to be successful in USPSA, which is what I was referring to. Accuracy, power, and speed. Bring that rimfire gun and run it in a USPSA match (even though you won't even make minor) and see if you can beat someone shooting 9mm major through an open gun. All the speed in the world won't mean a thing when your poppers don't fall. But then again, you shouldn't expect to do well in this situation because that's not how the game is set up. Get it?

3. Open race guns in USPSA don't shoot reduced power loads because they're not supposed to because of minimum power requirements and due to the fact that you need high pressure ammo to work a compensator. Comparing a gun that has to meet a 165pf to rimfire in a match where rimfires rule is like saying a formula 1 car will beat a dragster on a circular track.

4. I never said you suggested that competitors wouldn't know how to shoot in a real life situation. That's why I said "people." I was addressing multiple people who seem to believe that nonsense that have posted in this thread.

I hope this cleared up some of your confusion.

[bsim]

If I take the unsorted results from a match without taking into consideration the different classes (comprende?) the fastest scores for the match will be shot by top shooters shooting .22LR semi-autos. Do you understand that?

Which is why there are different classes. And no, in the "official" Steel Challenge (www.steelchallenge.com), .22 are NOT considered in "overall" results.

[RugerNo1]

This argument is still going? The OP did not ask about self defence, the scoring/legitimacy of .22 rimfire in Steel Challenge, how tactical we can be in a self defence/gunfight scenario, or how a competition shooter may/may not be able to defend himself in a "real gunfight."

In the spirit of getting back on track...


The OP asked about the difference between this:



And, this:



Which seems to have been, somehow, already explained between the .22s in SC and tacticool "real gunfights" discussion...

[Excelsior]

Here are the problems with what you're saying:

1. You're comparing centerfire open guns to rimfire guns from different disciplines. Apples to oranges. But if you want to make that comparison...

2. Speed is one of three components you need to be successful in USPSA, which is what I was referring to. Accuracy, power, and speed. Bring that rimfire gun and run it in a USPSA match (even though you won't even make minor) and see if you can beat someone shooting 9mm major through an open gun. All the speed in the world won't mean a thing when your poppers don't fall. But then again, you shouldn't expect to do well in this situation because that's not how the game is set up. Get it?

3. Open race guns in USPSA don't shoot reduced power loads because they're not supposed to because of minimum power requirements and due to the fact that you need high pressure ammo to work a compensator. Comparing a gun that has to meet a 165pf to rimfire in a match where rimfires rule is like saying a formula 1 car will beat a dragster on a circular track.

4. I never said you suggested that competitors wouldn't know how to shoot in a real life situation. That's why I said "people." I was addressing multiple people who seem to believe that nonsense that have posted in this thread.

I hope this cleared up some of your confusion.

1.) I covered that WAY back in this thread! Go look if you doubt me.

2.) I was speaking to SC. Please stick to the subject.

3.) So?

4.) Not sure if you have to qualities to realize/accept the truth but the confusion rests with you.

[Excelsior]

Which is why there are different classes. And no, in the "official" Steel Challenge (www.steelchallenge.com), .22 are NOT considered in "overall" results.

Can you read?

Take ALL the scores from an SC match and sort them by overall aggregate time without regard to the class/category. The fastest of the day will be rimfire shooters. Deal with that reality.

And with the real possibility of your head exploding, I'll also mention that the title of Steel Master (an official SC title) goes to the person who shots the fastest combined centerfire and rimfire times...

[JTROKS]

I think this thread is near closed.

Let's stick to the original subject for we haven't touched the difference between a polymer 2011 vs all steel such as Caspian or Para Ord.

BTW, hope we provided enough information about racegun vs stock.

[CalTeacher]

1.) I covered that WAY back in this thread! Go look if you doubt me.

2.) I was speaking to SC. Please stick to the subject.

3.) So?

4.) Not sure if you have to qualities to realize/accept the truth but the confusion rests with you.

[ZombieTactics]

The shooting games are games, and until you can actively participate in a live-fire exercise, where your life is truly on the line, you will never know either.

Somewhat, but the experience of those who have is strongly indicative.

True to a point, but ALL professional drivers will wheel your civic around a track much faster than you, even though they've never driven it, and you have 180,000 miles of experience in it.

Which sort of makes my point: there are partly overlapping skill sets. To apply the analogy further, I have no trouble believing that a good comp shooter (F1) or someone with significant SD/HD/FoF training (NASCAR) can generally handle a gun better than someone who goes plinking on the weekends occasionally (Civic).

[HighLander51]

The opposite seems not to hold true for such as yourself, who appear to assume skill at everything because they have mastered some level of skill at one thing. I wish it were easier to disabuse you of such notions, but I don't think you are open to anything beyond your stated prejudices.

I know who Jelly Bryce is and have read his book, along with a number of other famous gunfighters. So let's put it on the table, you are not a soldier, not a cop, don't have a CCW permit and do not shoot competitively. That pretty much leaves you with a couple of NRA classes. So why would I take anything you say as the right experience? I take my training from guys that are top competitive shooters, are ex-military and current active duty police.

[HighLander51]

a person noted to be a "great competitive shooter" making flopping around like a noob.

Yea, right, and the shooter told you he was a great competitive shooter, uh huh, did he also tell you what his classification was in USPSA and what division he shoots? That's because any real competitor is not going to talk about that stuff in a defensive pistol class. Here is a 'Real' competitive shooter, does he look like he is fumbling? Competitive shooters do more weapon manipulation in one stage of USPSA than training does during an entire day. Ok, low ready, transition to weak hand, engage, oooh, don't know if I can handle that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU3jceN4JAc

[ZombieTactics]

I know who Jelly Bryce is and have read his book, along with a number of other famous gunfighters.

Excellent, so have I.

So let's put it on the table, you are not a soldier, not a cop ...

Admittedly, but your point is what? Military training is amazingly basic for the vast majority of enlisted personnel, even more so for the vast majority of LEO. The last time I checked, something like 90% or LE take no training beyond what they receive at the academy, and never have occasion to draw their sidearm over a 20-year career.

... don't have a CCW permit ...

Wrong, but also not really important.

... and do not shoot competitively ...

Which speaks to nothing but your prejudices in this regard, and somewhat documents my earlier assertion to the effect that you are not open to anything beyond them.

That pretty much leaves you with a couple of NRA classes

Again ... wrong. You really like to jump to conclusions without full consideration or research, don't you?

So why would I take anything you say as the right experience?

I've never claimed to be an expert, certainly not your teacher, just a guy with a perspective. My experience does include being the victim of violent crime on 4 occasions, twice at gunpoint. That kind of thing tends to alter one's view of "reality" towards something more real.

I take my training from guys that are top competitive shooters, are ex-military and current active duty police.

So do I, although I trend more towards those with active experience than those who are strictly competitors. Was there a point to your comment?

The summation of your comments doesn't really say anything about the discussion itself. It's more just a laundry list of what or who you think is important. That's called an opinion, and I'd never say that you aren't as welcome to yours as anyone. I'd be far more interested in your thought processes and what logic you claim to support your opinions however.

[bsim]

Can you read?

Take ALL the scores from an SC match and sort them by overall aggregate time without regard to the class/category. The fastest of the day will be rimfire shooters. Deal with that reality.

And with the real possibility of your head exploding, I'll also mention that the title of Steel Master (an official SC title) goes to the person who shots the fastest combined centerfire and rimfire times...

I can read just fine. Understand your point, not so much.

Yes, in Steel Challenge, rimfire is usually faster than centerfire. Duh. And they start low ready too, another advantage. BUT, when you look at the results, rimfire is separate from centerfire when getting the overall winner. Yes, Steel Master is best combined score, but the Steel Challenge World Champion is the fastest centerfire shooter, and does not have to shoot rimfire.

I also don't understand what this has to do with the original question - what's the difference between a racegun and a production gun. At a national or world level competition, the smallest projectile is .355 except for Steel Challenge which has 2 .22 classes (iron and optic).

[ZombieTactics]

Yea, right, and the shooter told you he was a great competitive shooter, uh huh, did he also tell you what his classification was in USPSA and what division he shoots?

You sure jump to a lot of conclusions without any evidence. The statement regarding his skill was made by a third party, who I did not interrogate regarding the matter ... or should I have? The statement was roughly along the lines of "he's a great shooter, wins tournaments all the time. He shoots cowboy action too, and can shoot a DA revolver better/faster than most guys can shoot a semi-auto". I can attest that he could shoot, BTW ... he just fell apart under the minimal pressure of ambiguous exercises requiring thinking on one's feet.

That's because any real competitor is not going to talk about that stuff in a defensive pistol class.

It's amazing that you claim to speak for everyone in this regard. I think a "real competitor" is someone who shoots in competition. What they say or who they say it to is quite besides the point. You're pretty close to engaging the "no real Frenchman" logical fallacy.

Here is a 'Real' competitive shooter, does he look like he is fumbling?

Did I say that any particular competitor was fumbling in competition? I didn't, so I don't see your point.

Competitive shooters do more weapon manipulation in one stage of USPSA than training does during an entire day. ...

Really? Oh come on now, you're just speaking from your prejudices again. We're all friends here (I hope) and there isn't any cause for that kind of posturing or bluster. I think most people who have done ... or even witnessed ... both know better. Even fairly low tempo courses involve 20-30 mag changes or more in a day, for instance. That's low for many courses. I don't know of any typical, single comp stage like that, do you? What do you think actually happens in a typical HD training class or day of FoF exercises?

[zfields]

The military's M4's are QUITE RACY...

14.5 barrels
m4 barrel profiles
carbine gas systems
full auto (heavy) carriers/bolts
heavy triggers
non freefloated rails systems
collapsible stocks
flash hiders


Pretty much the opposite of a "race" ar 15.

I'm pretty convinced you have no idea what you are talking about outside Steel Challenge, so you should probably just stick to commenting on that.