Difference between race pistol and regular pistol

[elSquid]

Apparently he was quite fast out of the holster ... inhumanly so ... but took quite a bit of time lining up shots beyond typical "point shooting" distances. He also took corners in a far more careful and stealthy manner than the competition shooters who poked fun at him. That's not the kind of thing that turns in great times, but it gets you home alive.

Based on what documentation? What was the incident where he was laughed at? What competitions was he laughed at - wasn't the primary pistol competitions in the 1920s/30s/40s bullseye? Back then were bullseye competitions run in shoot houses? Were bullseye competitors laughing at him? It doesn't seem to add up.

From the officer.com article, it appeared that he was a national-level marksman ( he WON at Camp Perry! ) and his gunfights seemed to reinforce that he was both brutally fast and accurate with a gun.

-- Michael

[ZombieTactics]

Based on what documentation? What was the incident where he was laughed at? What competitions was he laughed at - wasn't the primary pistol competitions in the 1920s/30s/40s bullseye?

The story either is apocryphal, or it may be in one of the dozens of book on my shelf. My understanding is that it was one of the earlier Southern Combat Pistol League matches ... could be wrong about that. To be fair, it may have also been later in Bryce's life, perhaps at a point that he was "waning in his powers" so to speak.

From the officer.com article, it appeared that he was a national-level marksman ( he WON at Camp Perry! ) and his gunfights seemed to reinforce that he was both brutally fast and accurate with a gun.
...

I don't doubt any of that. I also know that Bryce won some matches earlier to the incident in question, but that those were strictly fast-draw competitions. He also went on to win many competitions thereafter. My comment is not to be taken as evidence that competition is "worthless" or unimportant. I know there are those who feel that way, and I probably did at one time. It's more to the point that here was a guy with actual field experience, who had prevailed in actual gunfights, being laughed at for his poor showing in a supposedly "practical" match. Put it in the same bucket as Cooper, Hackworth and others who lost faith in matches as the end-all/be-all of shooting skill or training. I tend to think this means something, but I am still in the process of drawing my lines of demarcation. It's not about ego or defending some emotionally-committed position.

To summarize the point: "Competition Shooting" and "HD/SD/FoF Training" have partly overlapping skill sets with each other as well as with other shooting disciplines. They are not "the same thing" however, which can be readily demonstrated. This relates to the OPs original question only so much as equipment might differ between the various disciplines or sports. It can't be said that any shooting discipline "knows it all" or that any of them cannot learn something form the other. The adoption/proliferation of electronic optics is a good illustrative pattern, for instance. This depends upon the willingness to do so however, which the present thread suggests is sometimes lacking.

[elSquid]

The story either is apocryphal, or it may be in one of the dozens of book on my shelf. My understanding is that it was one of the earlier Southern Combat Pistol League matches ... could be wrong about that. To be fair, it may have also been later in Bryce's life, perhaps at a point that he was "waning in his powers" so to speak.

Well, it would be nice to know if it actually happened. If it didn't, then perhaps there aren't any real conclusions that can be drawn from said non-existent event.

According to the officer article, Bryce was born in 1906, retired in 1958, and passed in 1974. It appears that Bryce was primarily responsible for the "FBI crouch" and teaching close range point shooting, which was pretty much what Cooper and the other guys were doing at the leatherslap competitions until Weaver changed the game...

-- Michael

[Lead Waster]

Just to pour some napalm onto this thread (Hey, why not!?) wouldn't paintball be pretty good for teaching "real life-ish" fire fights? I mean, you are trying to avoid getting hit while trying to get the other guy. Maybe the equipment is not the same, but I'm guessing many of the fundamentals are the same! (Like hide behind cover, etc, etc)...

Or airsoft I suppose is the same.

[zfields]

Just to pour some napalm onto this thread (Hey, why not!?) wouldn't paintball be pretty good for teaching "real life-ish" fire fights? I mean, you are trying to avoid getting hit while trying to get the other guy. Maybe the equipment is not the same, but I'm guessing many of the fundamentals are the same! (Like hide behind cover, etc, etc)...

Or airsoft I suppose is the same.

Both have been used in force on force training. Just matters how you treat it/train with it.

[JTROKS]

Simunitions are used by many Dept as FoF marking device.

[zfields]

Simunitions are used by many Dept as FoF marking device.

And it sucks to get hit in the neck by them...

[foxtrotuniformlima]

I was hoping for some more gun porn photos in here. Thread = disappointment. Thank god & jesus I didn't read it any of it. Good lord.

[ZombieTactics]

And it sucks to get hit in the neck by them...

It pretty much sucks to get hit anywhere by them, lol ... it's just better than having a real round be the first experience of getting hit.

[Brian1979]

This is pretty typical of the tacti-cool guys. They fall In love with some hard core trainer and become a cheerleader for them because of the money they wasted.

Fact is that you guys can do your thing an keep cheering your bromance on but at the end of the day you are slow and suck when it comes to moving and shooting. Run all the "what if" drills you want and keep paying money for that hardcore stuff and be sure to check the world after each engagement. If that makes you feel safe then it's money well spent.

I am a competition shooter with more emphasis on practicality. I choose to shoot uspsa from concealment because that's what I do daily. I have taken the tactical classes an they suck compared to what I get for $30 every Saturday in a 6 stage match. That's what makes me feel confident weekly but others need to be screamed at and pay to have some guy talk about how decorated he is. Funny thing is those trainers would suck and what we do and I know the competition guys would smoke the tactical classes because all that matters is speed and accuracy. Hiding behind walls an slicing pie around corners is educational but how fast you can shoot accurately is a skill that can't be given through talking about shooting.

By the way I shoot a stock 1911 TRP in single stack so I don't need nor want a race gun because it's not what I do daily. That seems to be the moral of the story here so buy which ever gun applies toward what you want to do.

[Brian1979]

Zombie tactics.

All those vids of you talking about shooting are awesome. I think our opinion means a lot with all the Internet research and classes you have taken.

We can be done with this if you would just post up a video of something us competition guys are missing out on. So far it seems like time behind a computer but you could prove me wrong.

Yes I am calling you out because it rubs me the wrong way to see guys like you offer advice and challenge REAL shooters over the net. It's hard to learn from a forum setting when new comers have to read the crap people like you write. With all the cool logos under your name one would assume you know what you are talking about but in reality I hope they read past the nonsense and ask real shooters for advice.

[ZombieTactics]

This is pretty typical of the tacti-cool guys. They fall In love with some hard core trainer and become a cheerleader for them because of the money they wasted.

Hmm, I am sure that is absolutely true in some cases. For my own part, I'm not really "in love" with anyone. If I were, I would not train with so many different companies.

Fact is that you guys can do your thing an keep cheering your bromance on but at the end of the day you are slow and suck when it comes to moving and shooting. Run all the "what if" drills you want and keep paying money for that hardcore stuff and be sure to check the world after each engagement. If that makes you feel safe then it's money well spent.

Seems like you are just repeating a lot of veiled insults and nothing more. Why is this such a recurring pattern, rather than discussion of the issues raised?

I am a competition shooter with more emphasis on practicality. I choose to shoot uspsa from concealment because that's what I do daily. ...

Makes a lot of sense.

I have taken the tactical classes an they suck ...

Which ones, specifically?

... compared to what I get for $30 every Saturday in a 6 stage match. ...

It seems that some competition guys are extremely penny-pinching, as I hear this comment a lot.

... That's what makes me feel confident weekly but others need to be screamed at and pay to have some guy talk about how decorated he is.

Now I really want to know who you've trained with, as I've never experienced either phenomenon.

Funny thing is those trainers would suck and what we do and I know the competition guys would smoke the tactical classes because all that matters is speed and accuracy. ...

Which trainers again, specifically? All of them? You're repeating the "all that matters is speed and accuracy" mantra ... how does that work when someone is already pointing a gun at your head and has you by the collar? That's happened to me for real, BTW ... so I'd like to know what awesome quick-draw technique solves that problem.

Hiding behind walls an slicing pie around corners is educational but how fast you can shoot accurately is a skill that can't be given through talking about shooting.

Who said it could?

By the way I shoot a stock 1911 TRP in single stack so I don't need nor want a race gun because it's not what I do daily. That seems to be the moral of the story here so buy which ever gun applies toward what you want to do.

Whatever works for you.

[ZombieTactics]

... All those vids of you talking about shooting are awesome. I think our opinion means a lot with all the Internet research and classes you have taken.

I don't think you really believe any of that for a minute.

We can be done with this if you would just post up a video of something us competition guys are missing out on.

... Or if you or someone else would post a video of comp shooters completely ruling in an FoF exercise. It's a two-way street. I could post up some video of comp shooters failing miserably, but that would be mean ... I don't roll that way. Nobody goes to a class to be insulted or made fun of.

I am calling you out because it rubs me the wrong way to see guys like you offer advice and challenge REAL shooters over the net.

I'm not sure I so much "offer advice" as much as express opinions. A lot of it depends upon how you define "REAL shooters", as well. I suspect that really just means competition shooters.

It's hard to learn from a forum setting when new comers have to read the crap people like you write. With all the cool logos under your name one would assume you know what you are talking about but in reality I hope they read past the nonsense and ask real shooters for advice.

I think people are generally capable of making their own decisions. If someone thinks my opinions are crap ... well, that's their right. Clearly you do, and you'll not get an unkind word from me. You use the phrase "real shooters" ... why not just say "competition shooters" and be done with it, since that's really what you mean in the first place?

The "cool logos" are only evidence of me doing something slightly beyond just buying a gun and running my mouth with zero training or education. It doesn't make me "special" or some fount of unquestioned wisdom, that's for sure.

Rather than simply insulting me, why not just communicate better and come up with better arguments?

[Brian1979]

Still no video of you actually shooting. Another forum research shooter as I suspected. You seem like a great shooter to take advice from, lol. Do you at least type with your trigger finger so it gets some use?

[ZombieTactics]

Still no video of you actually shooting. Another forum research shooter as I suspected. You seem like a great shooter to take advice from, lol. Do you at least type with your trigger finger so it gets some use?

More of the same. Sorry I can't get through to you. It's my fault. I need to communicate better or something. There's video of me shooting on my channel, but I don't try to post up videos of "me being awesome", because it's not about vanity, bragging rights or chest puffing.

The whole "argument by insult" thing gets old fast though. If that's all you've got we really aren't having much of a discussion.