Easy to shoot accurately

[jakuda]

....

An Olympic target pistol, would slip into that wrist attitude and the sights would be aligned on the target. This allows you to aim and shoot without adding tension to your arm or hand.

Before I'm condemned as a Glock fan-boy, let me say that I usually compete and teach with a SIG, M&P or 1911...but it doesn't affect my accuracy when shooting my G19 or Ruger .22 Auto either

+1. There is a reason European-made target pistols for International/Olympic shooting have a very angled grip....
With the Olympics coming up, one should tune into nbc online and see the air pistol and free pistol events. Go USA!

[Lead Waster]

I think grip angle is more of an issue if you shoot ONE HANDED. If you shoot with both hands, in say, the thumbs forward grip, the angle matters less.

Hickok45 is a great shot, but being a retired guy with a shooting range in your backyard probably backs up the theory that trigger time and practice is what makes a good shot. I was stunned with his video when he's ringing a gong at 100 yards (YARDS!) with a Glock 23!! But again, the guy has a range in his backyard. The rest of use have to pony up 20 bucks at the ranges we go to

[InGrAM]

You may be right that the debate will never go away, but it isn't so much personal preference as it is the philosophy of recoil management...but that is really too involved to get into here.

Grip angle actually is a science. There have been thousands of dollars spent studying the most natural gripping angle that allows the most efficient accuracy. The goal of this study is the most intensive test of handgun accuracy know...the Olympics.

But it is quite easy to demonstrate to yourself at home which is the most natural grip.

1. Extend your arm out in front of you with the palm facing downward.
2. Relax your wrist/hand. That doesn't mean to point it downward. When relaxed, the wrist will dangle downward at something between 30 and 40 degrees.
3. Without straightening or tensing your wrist, turn your hand so that the wrist is vertical with the thumb on top.
4. That is your natural grip angle

An Olympic target pistol, would slip into that wrist attitude and the sights would be aligned on the target. This allows you to aim and shoot without adding tension to your arm or hand.

Before I'm condemned as a Glock fan-boy, let me say that I usually compete and teach with a SIG, M&P or 1911...but it doesn't affect my accuracy when shooting my G19 or Ruger .22 Auto either

Once again...... Do you have any reliable evidence to back your claims?

And yes, the debate will always exist because glock fanboys can not stand the fact that other shooters might not like them or might not enjoy shooting them as much as other handguns. So glock enthusiasts make up "scientific" studies to "show" shooters that don't like glock's grip angle/hump that they are idiots and wrong....

And who said anything about not shooting a glock well just because someone doesn't like the grip angle/hump?

[jakuda]

Once again...... Do you have any reliable evidence to back your claims?

And yes, the debate will always exist because glock fanboys can not stand the fact that other shooters might not like them or might not enjoy shooting them as much as other handguns. So glock enthusiasts make up "scientific" studies to "show" shooters that don't like glock's grip angle/hump that they are idiots and wrong....

And who said anything about not shooting a glock well just because someone doesn't like the grip angle/hump?

If you can find it, please read Competitive Shooting by Yur'yev. Translated from Russian to English during the golden Soviet years, when the Soviets were winning many of the international shooting competitions. They approached everything from equipment, stance, grip angle, trigger finger, the eyeball, timing, mental training, everything with a scientific method. While some of the techniques are outdated because of better physical training on the part of competitors, many of their findings still ring true.

[jakuda]

When I get home, I'll scan some parts of the book where they talk about grip angle.

[InGrAM]

When I get home, I'll scan some parts of the book where they talk about grip angle.

Thanks, that would be helpful to help prove the scientific factory in people suggesting that the glock is superior to all other handguns based on its grip angle and more importantly grip arch or hump.

[9mmepiphany]

Once again...... Do you have any reliable evidence to back your claims?

I gather that you are not willing to accept the evidence that all high end competition pistols use that natural angle?

Then I guess you'll have to wait for the scans of the Yur'yev study...that really is the bible in accurate handgun shooting.

The US Olympic Shooting Team also did studies...I've had a chance to speak with a couple of their coaches...but I don't know if they are published. I didn't ask for documentation, I just took them at their word

[InGrAM]

I gather that you are not willing to accept the evidence that all high end competition pistols use that natural angle?

Then I guess you'll have to wait for the scans of the Yur'yev study...that really is the bible in accurate handgun shooting.

The US Olympic Shooting Team also did studies...I've had a chance to speak with a couple of their coaches...but I don't know if they are published. I didn't ask for documentation, I just took them at their word

Well, you have not given anything but your opinion on the matter. Is it my fault that I find your claims to be based on your personal opinion and not on hard scientific facts?

I never said that the 1911's grip angle was superior to the glocks or that the glocks grip angle was a negative aspect of the firearm. I stated that there is no absolute scientific evidence that the glocks grip angle is superior to all other handguns.

Also, you do realize that Olympic handgun shooting is a one handed sport and the shooters learn backwards when shooting their pistols. It is a very awkward looking stance to say the least. Apples to oranges, Olympic shooting and defensive shooting are completely different.

[9mmepiphany]

You've mentioned "superior to all other handguns" a couple of time now, but I haven't ever stated that. I have simply addressed the notion of which is the more natural grip...the one that requires the least effort to use.

I'm not sure what proof you are looking for if you won't accept that manufacturers of pistols designed to allow accurate shooting with the least stress/tension have all followed the same grip angle formula. I would think that would be a demonstration of research coming to a conclusion. Manufactures won't share this research with competitors who might gain an advantage.

Would you also call real world researchers like Captain William Ewart Fairbairn and Captain Eric Anthony Sykes who wrote Shooting To Live (1942) or Rex Applegate in Kill or Get Killed (1943) just opinions also? They addressed the natural grip angle or the weakness of the 1911 for lacking it in their works.

I thought we were talking about accurate shooting and more specifically a natural grip angle. Much like trigger press, the mechanics of it doesn't change based on how it is applied. Adding the second hand just makes it easier to recover for the second shot. The grip of the strong hand and the trigger press remain the same...it is only the speed of movement and distance traveled that differ

[InGrAM]

You've mentioned "superior to all other handguns" a couple of time now, but I haven't ever stated that. I have simply addressed the notion of which is the more natural grip...the one that requires the least effort to use.

I'm not sure what proof you are looking for if you won't accept that manufacturers of pistols designed to allow accurate shooting with the least stress/tension have all followed the same grip angle formula. I would think that would be a demonstration of research coming to a conclusion. Manufactures won't share this research with competitors who might gain an advantage.

Would you also call real world researchers like Captain William Ewart Fairbairn and Captain Eric Anthony Sykes who wrote Shooting To Live (1942) or Rex Applegate in Kill or Get Killed (1943) just opinions also? They addressed the natural grip angle or the weakness of the 1911 for lacking it in their works.

I thought we were talking about accurate shooting and more specifically a natural grip angle. Much like trigger press, the mechanics of it doesn't change based on how it is applied. Adding the second hand just makes it easier to recover for the second shot. The grip of the strong hand and the trigger press remain the same...it is only the speed of movement and distance traveled that differ

You forgot kel-tec's quote that I initially replied to? Go back and read. Saying that a certain firearm has a "more natural" grip angle or grip to all other firearms is implying that it has a superior grip angle or grip to other firearms.

This is going no where fast. You have not presented any proof or definitive scientific evidence to back your claims. What you are stating is personal opinion so why are you still pushing this? The fact that not every human being is made the same should be a real eye opener for you.

Since we are clearly the only ones keeping this thread going I am going to back off now and let you go your way.

Agree to disagree

[jonzer77]

Glock's angle on the pistol grip is a natural grip on average human being so its easy to shoot accurately vs. a pistol grip that is Not natural where practice is required.

[jakuda]

....
Also, you do realize that Olympic handgun shooting is a one handed sport and the shooters learn backwards when shooting their pistols. It is a very awkward looking stance to say the least. Apples to oranges, Olympic shooting and defensive shooting are completely different.

Just got home. Will scan in a bit.
I will say however, that the rearward leaning stance is one of the outdated techniques that I briefly mentioned above that fewer and fewer competitors use these days due to better physical conditioning. Back in the day however, every Soviet (and thus everyone else who copied the winners) did the rearward leaning stance. Even in the Competitive Shooting by Yur'yev book, Yur'Yev notes that top free pistol shooters from the 50s-60s did the lean, while the top shooters in the 70s started to stand more upright.

I don't think stance affects what the "natural" or "relaxed" grip angle is however, since the arm is always parallel to the floor (pointed to the target) while the torso is upright or leaning rearward.

[jakuda]

Here is an excerpt from the Competitive Shooting book by Yur'yev. Yes this is for international (ISSF)/Olympic shooting which is one handed.

The Cliff's Notes is that having some inclination (aka angle) uses less muscle action to support the pistol. One of the key things in precision shooting is to let your stance be supported as much as you can by your skeleton, and not your muscles...for many reasons we don't need to get into here. However too much grip angle is also bad, causing more muscle strain and also causes more sympathetic movement of your non-trigger fingers (others finger move when your trigger finger moves...this is bad).

So... in many European free pistols (they looks like toys), air pistols, and so forth the grip angle is quite pronounced. You feel like you're aiming into the ground (if you're used to a 1911), however the sights and barrel are pointed right at the bullseye. In some of the models, like the Steyr LP10, the grip angle is fully adjustable.

That being said, in the sport of NRA bullseye/conventional shooting, 1911 is king. For the 22 caliber portions European guns have been and are still popular, but many shooters are turning towards 1911 conversions.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8007/7654302722_b5d8164541_b.jpg

[9mmepiphany]

Thank you jakuda, that is much as I remember it...the book wasn't mine, it belonged to a shooting coach...I didn't know there was so much contention over something that had been researched and accepted so long ago

[Capybara]

Should have been more specific, sorry, the Ruger Mk III. Here's one of the versions, and with a red dot it's like cheating at steel-shoots.

Makes sense, I just wondered if Ruger had introduced some new companion to the rifle.

If that is your MKIII, sweet! Love those guns, they are super accurate, I shot one at a class. Made me want one badly. I have an SR22 and love it but the MKIII target is a whole other level.