It would be awesome if...

[sigfan91]

Ruger could make LCP2 in 25ACP, and LCP Max in 32ACP, or even LCP2 in 32ACP.

We need a mouse gun renaissance in this country.

[Garbcollector]

Last thing Ruger wants to do is build pistols that nobody buys.

[sigfan91]

I think there's a market for these. LCP2 in 22LR is great, but 22LR isn't great. Modern quality 22LR like CCI MiniMag or Federal Punch are 99% reliable. But 99% reliable is not good enough for self defense situation. John Browning designed 25ACP as a replacement for 22LR in pocket gun for self defense role.

LCP Max is a great gun, but 380ACP from a pocket gun could be punishing for some people. I have one. It took me about 300 rounds to get used to the recoil. I still don't want to fire more than 50 rounds per range visit. LCP Max in 32ACP would be much more tolerable for some people. They will be more willing to practice and carry instead of leaving it at home or fumble around with it in an emergency due to lack of familiarity with it.

Yes yes, all "experts" say the minimum self defense round should be 380ACP. Guess what? I have never seen any video footage of robbers asking the would-be victim about the size of his gun before fleeing. Most crooks don't want to be shot. I don't want to be shot. The presentation of a gun and a few shots in their general direction would drive most if not all robbers away.

[Reno-Kid]

Add... Ruger LCP in 22 magnum

[NorcalGSG]

I agree with the premise Sigfan. Along the same lines, I have often thought about a scaled down snub nose revolver would be amazing. Split the difference between a J-frame and a NAA single action in size. And use like a 32 or even a .25 shouldered cartridge.
Back to the recoil - I have tried the heavier recoil springs available for the LCP, and found them to greatly reduce the snap at least over the stock springs. I believe the OEM chooses the lighter springs to help weak handed folks be a able to run the slide easier.

[NorcalGSG]

The KelTec P32 really kicked off the plastic mouse revolution. An LCP in 32 acp would be amazing.

[acaligunner]

Question ~

If 380 HP’s rarely expand, and 380 FMJ hardly penetrates to the 12” standard, why would someone pick an even less powerful round like the 32 acp, 25 acp, or 22lr?

I know the thought of giving an elderly the above pistols, but again many elderly have less / or weak hand strength to be troubled by a small size pistol with small safety levers / controls.

I can understand less recoil impulse with these smaller pistols / calibers, but for life saving SD the little calibers leave much to be desired, fun range guns but not so good ( imo ) for any kinds of SD.

There are ( can we say nicer ) pistols in 380acp ~ like the Sig 238 ( pop gun 😁 ), LCP Max, in 380 that don’t recoil much and have nice controls on them.

I have the S 238 with 90gr flex tip ammo and to me it’s a nice system that ( as stated ) meets some of the minimum requirements.

I had a beretta 25acp that I use to use that Winchester pellet nose ammo 😁, and a walther 32 acp - but they were just fun range guns. Although that pellet nose 25 ammo was almost as much as buying 38spl ammo 🤔.

I like all kinds of firearms, but these little calibers guns have their own sop’s. Just sayin ‘

[DanGunner]

I am a huge .32 fan, both revolver and semiauto, and have about a dozen handguns to prove it. I think and LCP .32 ACP would be terrific but have to agree that the market would not be huge, given current shooter preferences, but nor would it be nonexistent as sales of Beretta. Seecamp and Kel-Tec pistols attest. It's a much better round than .380 for pocket carry, in terms of followup shots.

[acaligunner]

^
Something to complete with the Beretta Tomcat flip opening barrel ( I had one in 25acp ) that could handle cor- bon ammo ( are they still around ) or buffalo bore stuff.
I think that would fit in the 32 acp market.

A pistol that can handle all kinds of ammo without having to use only 1 specific ammo ( remember seecamp advised I believe only Winchester 32 ammo ) or having to worry about the possible frame issues 😏.

Might be something some gunners would want .

[sigfan91]

Question ~

If 380 HP’s rarely expand, and 380 FMJ hardly penetrates to the 12” standard, why would someone pick an even less powerful round like the 32 acp, 25 acp, or 22lr?

I know the thought of giving an elderly the above pistols, but again many elderly have less / or weak hand strength to be troubled by a small size pistol with small safety levers / controls.

I can understand less recoil impulse with these smaller pistols / calibers, but for life saving SD the little calibers leave much to be desired, fun range guns but not so good ( imo ) for any kinds of SD.

There are ( can we say nicer ) pistols in 380acp ~ like the Sig 238 ( pop gun 😁 ), LCP Max, in 380 that don’t recoil much and have nice controls on them.

I have the S 238 with 90gr flex tip ammo and to me it’s a nice system that ( as stated ) meets some of the minimum requirements.

I had a beretta 25acp that I use to use that Winchester pellet nose ammo 😁, and a walther 32 acp - but they were just fun range guns. Although that pellet nose 25 ammo was almost as much as buying 38spl ammo 🤔.

I like all kinds of firearms, but these little calibers guns have their own sop’s. Just sayin ‘

Do you know why the recommended penetration depth is 12"? That's the distance from a person's right side underarm, going across the chest cavity to reach the heart. How often does that happen? A person's heart is not more than a few inches from the surface if you try to hit it from the front.

Smaller caliber guns are not useless. No one wants to get shot. Very often an armed victim of a crime can fend off the crooks simply by brandishing a gun, no matter how small (common calibers, not 2.7mm Colibri). Even a 22 short can poke holes in people. That's the name of the game. Poke holes in people to bleed them out.

I have LCP Max and Sig P238. Their recoil impulse is not on the same level. I can shoot P238 all day but I don't want to fire more than 50 rounds from a LCP Max per range trip. The reason for that difference is probably the mass of the gun. P238 has a bigger/thicker slide, and the overall weight is 50% more than the Max. Mass absorbs recoil.

Sometimes we don't want too much mass in our pocket guns. They sag the jacket or trouser to make them look unnatural. I really like the LCP2 in 22LR, but 22LR is not very well suited for self defense due to reliability issues. They have feeding issues in autos due to the rim, and rimfire itself does not make a very reliable ignition system. John Browning create the 25ACP to mimic the ballistics of 22LR from a short barrel yet preserve the reliability of rimless centerfire cartridge in an auto pistol.

I know these will be more niche than other types of SD pistols like the micro 9s on the market. However, I believe there is a small but not insignificant market for them. The best thing is LCP2 and LCP Max already exist in higher calibers (380ACP). It shouldn't be too much work to adapt them to 32ACP and 25ACP.

More choices are always better.

[sigfan91]

^
Something to complete with the Beretta Tomcat flip opening barrel ( I had one in 25acp ) that could handle cor- bon ammo ( are they still around ) or buffalo bore stuff.
I think that would fit in the 32 acp market.

A pistol that can handle all kinds of ammo without having to use only 1 specific ammo ( remember seecamp advised I believe only Winchester 32 ammo ) or having to worry about the possible frame issues 😏.

Might be something some gunners would want .

I agree. A pocket pistol that can handle all types of different ammo would be ideal. I believe LCP series can do it. 32ACP and 380ACP generate about the same pressure. Adapting LCP to fire 32ACP would be safe because the barrel could be made even thicker than needed.

I love Beretta mouse guns, except for the Tomcat. It's really really fat. That width makes it hard to hide in a pocket, thus defeating the "pocket pistol" concept.

Beretta tip up barrels are great, except when there's a jam. One can't just rack the slide to chamber another round. There's no extractor. Re-chambering a round in a tip up barrel is much more tedious than a regular gun. If only Beretta could incorporate an extractor into this design. It's not impossible. The Spanish Jo.Lo.Ar pistol has a tip up barrel and an extractor.

[acaligunner]

Do you know why the recommended penetration depth is 12"? That's the distance from a person's right side underarm, going across the chest cavity to reach the heart. How often does that happen? A person's heart is not more than a few inches from the surface if you try to hit it from the front.

Smaller caliber guns are not useless. No one wants to get shot. Very often an armed victim of a crime can fend off the crooks simply by brandishing a gun, no matter how small (common calibers, not 2.7mm Colibri). Even a 22 short can poke holes in people. That's the name of the game. Poke holes in people to bleed them out.

I have LCP Max and Sig P238. Their recoil impulse is not on the same level. I can shoot P238 all day but I don't want to fire more than 50 rounds from a LCP Max per range trip. The reason for that difference is probably the mass of the gun. P238 has a bigger/thicker slide, and the overall weight is 50% more than the Max. Mass absorbs recoil.

Sometimes we don't want too much mass in our pocket guns. They sag the jacket or trouser to make them look unnatural. I really like the LCP2 in 22LR, but 22LR is not very well suited for self defense due to reliability issues. They have feeding issues in autos due to the rim, and rimfire itself does not make a very reliable ignition system. John Browning create the 25ACP to mimic the ballistics of 22LR from a short barrel yet preserve the reliability of rimless centerfire cartridge in an auto pistol.

I know these will be more niche than other types of SD pistols like the micro 9s on the market. However, I believe there is a small but not insignificant market for them. The best thing is LCP2 and LCP Max already exist in higher calibers (380ACP). It shouldn't be too much work to adapt them to 32ACP and 25ACP.

More choices are always better.

I’ve seen people shot with 22’s and 25’s, and in one instance the 25 only went skin deep, one other was not so lucky.

Yes they can kill ( so can most modern air guns ), but the point of SD is too Stop and attack, and with those less powerful rounds 22’s, 25acp and 32 acp that is often not the case.

I also know that a lot of harden criminals ( I’ve seen a few ) are on PCP , meth, Coke, and or liquored up and they are not playing when they go out and commit crimes. They are determined to either get their next fix, or get your money, and with that determination they are not afraid of a gun.

Why are they not afraid - well because they are hard criminals, that live a hard life, besides that they have no regard for what little actions a “ regular “ person can do to stop them.

I’ve been shot at ( by the same folks ) stabbed in the face by them, jumped, and also had to deal with some of them. There whole attitude is to mess someone up bad and they have no fear of whatever action some person thinks they can do to prevent them from doing whatever they want.

But, that’s not always the case, and maybe as stated, you may never deal with having to meet that type of convict or gangster - maybe just some punk who is not as harden.

But again ~ if you did meet a convict like that - would you really want to have a pistol / revolver that may be lacking, or a small caliber that would take multiple hits on a bg that is already on you with a blade.

As to weight ~ who are we marketing these pistols to ? I have carried the sig 238 in a Alabama pocket holster and the 15oz was nothing, nor did it wobble / move in the pocket ~ so who is having a issue with the weight of a ( can we say ) heavy Sig 238 ?

Also, these little pop guns basically need fmj and / or special types of SD ammo to get that hp to open up / or that fmj round to penetrate the clothing, T shirt, skin, bone, blood, and lung / heart - head ? That skull is kind of tough .

Also being so small and in a pocket, little guns have little moving features that can get clogged up in the action, are we sure that a person that has issues with a 380 firearm is going to do the sop’s that need to be done with these micro micro’s ?

I’ve shot the beretta pop up barrel 22’s and 25’s and the walther 32’s, and I was always looking to Load them up with the hottest / special type of ammo ( Winchester pellet nose ammo for the 25acp ), because I knew they were weak and underpowered rounds.

Yes, I do like all kind of firearms - and maybe I’m a bit jaded because I may have had a different type of situations than regular folks, and maybe I’m wrong here as well, but unless there is some specific reason a person has to not carry a more ( can I say again better / or appropriate tool for defending themselves) maybe their are better avenues to explore.

I also agree it’s a good thing to be armed, and it’s a good thing to always carry, but don’t believe that the other bg is also not armed and doesn’t care if you pull on them, basically because they have no thought of you being on their level. They have seen violence and have dealt with violence that a good guy / good lady, may not have seen.

Be safe out there, again just throwing that out there

[sigfan91]

I’ve seen people shot with 22’s and 25’s, and in one instance the 25 only went skin deep, one other was not so lucky.

Yes they can kill ( so can most modern air guns ), but the point of SD is too Stop and attack, and with those less powerful rounds 22’s, 25acp and 32 acp that is often not the case.

I also know that a lot of harden criminals ( I’ve seen a few ) are on PCP , meth, Coke, and or liquored up and they are not playing when they go out and commit crimes. They are determined to either get their next fix, or get your money, and with that determination they are not afraid of a gun.

Why are they not afraid - well because they are hard criminals, that live a hard life, besides that they have no regard for what little actions a “ regular “ person can do to stop them.

I’ve been shot at ( by the same folks ) stabbed in the face by them, jumped, and also had to deal with some of them. There whole attitude is to mess someone up bad and they have no fear of whatever action some person thinks they can do to prevent them from doing whatever they want.

But, that’s not always the case, and maybe as stated, you may never deal with having to meet that type of convict or gangster - maybe just some punk who is not as harden.

But again ~ if you did meet a convict like that - would you really want to have a pistol / revolver that may be lacking, or a small caliber that would take multiple hits on a bg that is already on you with a blade.

As to weight ~ who are we marketing these pistols to ? I have carried the sig 238 in a Alabama pocket holster and the 15oz was nothing, nor did it wobble / move in the pocket ~ so who is having a issue with the weight of a ( can we say ) heavy Sig 238 ?

Also, these little pop guns basically need fmj and / or special types of SD ammo to get that hp to open up / or that fmj round to penetrate the clothing, T shirt, skin, bone, blood, and lung / heart - head ? That skull is kind of tough .

Also being so small and in a pocket, little guns have little moving features that can get clogged up in the action, are we sure that a person that has issues with a 380 firearm is going to do the sop’s that need to be done with these micro micro’s ?

I’ve shot the beretta pop up barrel 22’s and 25’s and the walther 32’s, and I was always looking to Load them up with the hottest / special type of ammo ( Winchester pellet nose ammo for the 25acp ), because I knew they were weak and underpowered rounds.

Yes, I do like all kind of firearms - and maybe I’m a bit jaded because I may have had a different type of situations than regular folks, and maybe I’m wrong here as well, but unless there is some specific reason a person has to not carry a more ( can I say again better / or appropriate tool for defending themselves) maybe their are better avenues to explore.

I also agree it’s a good thing to be armed, and it’s a good thing to always carry, but don’t believe that the other bg is also not armed and doesn’t care if you pull on them, basically because they have no thought of you being on their level. They have seen violence and have dealt with violence that a good guy / good lady, may not have seen.

Be safe out there, again just throwing that out there

Well, now we come to the part where "how much" is enough. There are some big guys who won't be affected by small guns. They might have thick layer of muscle or fat plus very dense bones to be not affected by 22LR and 25ACP. There are some people, like you said, all drugged up and don't really care or just don't feel pain. They also might not have the normal instinct of not want to be shot like normal people. But how often do most people encounter this type of criminal?

I can carry a single gun that's enough to stop a 300lb linebacker on PCP. That gun will be very big and very hard to conceal. Most people probably don't practice with it because the recoil might be too much for them. How often would I need something like this?

People would encounter punks trying to rob them for booze or drug money more often. A 44 magnum would stop these guys for sure, but so would a 25ACP.

I need to run to the corner store for a nyquil in the middle of the night. I don't expect to encounter hardened criminals, at least not near my neighborhood. I might encounter some punks. I just want to throw a pocket gun in my shorts for this 15 min excursion. I don't want to wear jeans and sweatshirt just so I can carry a P220. Right now I have a choice of LCP Max or LCP2. They are either hard to handle or high malfunction risk (22LR). I would be more comfortable carrying a 25ACP or 32ACP in this situation.

I know, it's a niche market, like driving an EV. I just want to see some more options than the 4 32ACP currently in production in the US, and ZERO(?) 25ACP in production.

[Reno-Kid]

I agree. A pocket pistol that can handle all types of different ammo would be ideal. I believe LCP series can do it. 32ACP and 380ACP generate about the same pressure. Adapting LCP to fire 32ACP would be safe because the barrel could be made even thicker than needed.

I love Beretta mouse guns, except for the Tomcat. It's really really fat. That width makes it hard to hide in a pocket, thus defeating the "pocket pistol" concept.

Beretta tip up barrels are great, except when there's a jam. One can't just rack the slide to chamber another round. There's no extractor. Re-chambering a round in a tip up barrel is much more tedious than a regular gun. If only Beretta could incorporate an extractor into this design. It's not impossible. The Spanish Jo.Lo.Ar pistol has a tip up barrel and an extractor.

It does exist. HK Model 4. Interchangeable barrel 25 acp, 32 acp, and 380.
And it looks like Ruger LCP. It's C&R therefore legal in California.
There is also the Beretta 70 or M1935 in 32acp.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_HK4

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1147826689

Beretta Model 418 in 25 acp

https://youtu.be/FC-UZ4gJ7A4?si=-uZWGpIIP5kKJbav

[jarhead714]

Little Crappy Pistol in .32? Nah. Little Crappy Revolver in .32 H&R Magnum? Maybe.🤔