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"Chambered or not?" solution...maybe

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  • Rigma
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2009
    • 988

    "Chambered or not?" solution...maybe

    Imagine that you wake from a dead sleep to a sound that alerts you. You reach for your night stand gun and your trigger finger falls extended onto the frame as your training has seared into your brain.

    Imagine again in your dark bedroom as you reach for the gun that in your reduced mental state that your finger finds its natural home inside the trigger guard as you are still extracting the weapon, increasing the chance of a ND.

    In either scenario, what if there was a soft yet still physically evident reminder to guide your finger to it's proper safe place. And what if this physical device could be removed with the slightest pressure once your faculties are restored and you are ready to address the threat.

    I am one of those people that have observed the debate regarding handguns and the issue of having a round chambered or not with interest because I was myself sitting on the fence.

    In my case, the issue was the use of a semi-auto pistol with no external safety. I have come up with no proposed solution in terms of concealed carry, but have had an idea that works for my specific concern in terms of HD.

    First off, with a child in the house that means to me the gun must be secured. So with that issue solved by the use of a devise such as a biometric night stand gun vault I began to tackle the larger issue of my concerns with a round chambered in a gun with no external safety (such as a Glock, although many have voiced he same concerns with handguns that have a safety).

    Next, I addressed my primary example of the issue. Waking from a dead sleep and possibly fumbling for my weapon and in the process causing a ND.

    I do think training could overcome this issue. Yet in my experience, setting an alarm to wake me in the twilight hours to practice did not yield satisfactory results, and really just annoyed my wife.

    While the process of getting TO the weapon seemed to improve with practice through muscle memory, I did not seem to solve the issue of safely extracting it from secure storage and indexing the weapon while in a reduced mental state.

    I decided that the solution could require a physical safety device, and maybe I would need to reevaluate my choice of weapon.

    Then a simple solution came to mind. Safety devices are not always integrated into the design of the weapon, for instance trigger locks. Also, safety devices are not always locked or otherwise difficult to remove such as a chamber flag.

    So what if a device existed that prevented me from inadvertently placing my finger on the trigger while in a reduced mental state such a waking, and also required minimal effort to remove?

    I felt rather silly that while this thought bounced around in my skull, I may be lying on the possible solution.

    All it would take is a cylindrical piece of foam, approximately the width of the gun, and in nearly the same dimension as the space between the trigger and the trigger guard to prevent an unintended natural response or bad hold on the weapon as it is removed from the storage location.

    If properly fitted, it would at lest temporarily prevent the finger from entering the space between the trigger and the trigger guard, and could be popped out with minimal effort. If the foam is soft and pliable enough, and fitted to the width of the gun it should not be 'snag' hazard or exert enough pressure on the trigger to cause a discharge.

    Hardly a revolutionary concept, just an idea born as the result of insomnia.

    If you are a ninja and can clean your guns with your toes while doing a cross word puzzle and taking a nap, then your response of "I don't need no safety" is not needed.

    If you have a useful and critical evaluation of the idea then I would like to read it.
    I don't know how political I am, I don't get into all that crap....I just love freedom...
    -Kaziah Hancock
  • #2
    Spirit 1
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 591

    Seems to me that trigger pull weight and choosing a D/A-S/A design in the first place would be the fast track to that safety issue.

    Not often that one is forced to choose a gun with a 2 lbs trigger and no safety as their primary defensive weapon. Also not often that one is forced to keep it instead of trading off for something more suitable to the needs at hand.

    Additionally if I had a wife and family, young children, I would make every conceivable effort to harden the homesite to cause any intruder to have to go to a whole lot of time consuming trouble to get in. This would also serve to protect the home better on those occassions that I couldn't be there personally as the home defender.

    Comment

    • #3
      edwardm
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2005
      • 1939

      Your idea is interesting, but I think a bad one.

      First, you're inserting an object into the trigger guard. Maybe it's not a finger, but it's something that, under admittedly screwed up circumstances, could also cause or assist in a negligent discharge.

      Second, you're relying on a safety. You never rely on a safety. Ever. There is no safety, internal or external, that I rely on in place of proper handling, except the safety between my ears.

      I understand your concern and don't mean to short-change them, but this is probably a Very Bad Idea. Same reason I don't believe in trigger locks.

      Do you know what a jeweler's loupe it? Little lens that rotates into a metal sheath on a hinge? Something like that over the trigger guard might be more reasonable. Prevents anything from being inside the trigger guard, and could be quickly rotated out of the way. Still, it's reliance on an external mechanical safety device, but you don't violate having Some Other Object in the trigger guard.

      But hey, keep thinking. This is how millionaires are made.
      Originally posted by Rigma
      Imagine that you wake from a dead sleep to a sound that alerts you. You reach for your night stand gun and your trigger finger falls extended onto the frame as your training has seared into your brain.


      In my case, the issue was the use of a semi-auto pistol with no external safety. I have come up with no proposed solution in terms of concealed carry, but have had an idea that works for my specific concern in terms of HD.

      First off, with a child in the house that means to me the gun must be secured. So with that issue solved by the use of a devise such as a biometric night stand gun vault I began to tackle the larger issue of my concerns with a round chambered in a gun with no external safety (such as a Glock, although many have voiced he same concerns with handguns that have a safety).

      Next, I addressed my primary example of the issue. Waking from a dead sleep and possibly fumbling for my weapon and in the process causing a ND.

      While the process of getting TO the weapon seemed to improve with practice through muscle memory, I did not seem to solve the issue of safely extracting it from secure storage and indexing the weapon while in a reduced mental state.

      I decided that the solution could require a physical safety device, and maybe I would need to reevaluate my choice of weapon.

      So what if a device existed that prevented me from inadvertently placing my finger on the trigger while in a reduced mental state such a waking, and also required minimal effort to remove?

      I felt rather silly that while this thought bounced around in my skull, I may be lying on the possible solution.

      All it would take is a cylindrical piece of foam, approximately the width of the gun, and in nearly the same dimension as the space between the trigger and the trigger guard to prevent an unintended natural response or bad hold on the weapon as it is removed from the storage location.

      If properly fitted, it would at lest temporarily prevent the finger from entering the space between the trigger and the trigger guard, and could be popped out with minimal effort. If the foam is soft and pliable enough, and fitted to the width of the gun it should not be 'snag' hazard or exert enough pressure on the trigger to cause a discharge.

      Hardly a revolutionary concept, just an idea born as the result of insomnia.

      If you are a ninja and can clean your guns with your toes while doing a cross word puzzle and taking a nap, then your response of "I don't need no safety" is not needed.

      If you have a useful and critical evaluation of the idea then I would like to read it.

      Comment

      • #4
        sirgiles
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2008
        • 2311

        i agree with edwardm that the best SAFETY is between your ears.
        i think that your insomnia has made you overthink things.
        i would keep it simple and stupid.
        if i am awakened at night by a bump, i open my light and SAFELY reach for whatever home defense setup when i'm not in a reduced mental state.
        Last edited by sirgiles; 05-19-2012, 4:32 PM.
        "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine."

        Bruce Lee

        Comment

        • #5
          zinfull
          CGN/CGSSA Contributor
          CGN Contributor
          • Aug 2006
          • 2733

          I have that for my Glock. It is called a Holster. Protects the trigger until you remove the gun for use.

          jerry

          Comment

          • #6
            bigb0886
            Member
            • Jun 2011
            • 313

            If you did use a piece of foam, perhaps it should fit snugly behind the trigger as well as being in front of it. It won't eliminate the threat of a ND because there IS something on the trigger but maybe it will cut down the possibility?

            Comment

            • #7
              Ergo the Qualmed
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2010
              • 1020

              Lone Wolf Arms is the largest manufacturer of aftermarket parts for Glocks. We also have M&P Shield, Beretta/Taurus, and Browning Hi-Power parts.


              Something like that, perhaps?

              This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

              Comment

              • #8
                UserM4
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2010
                • 1687

                I have the same concern with a short trigger for hd. I have come to realize that a da/sa isnt for everyone but a dao/dak/lem trigger is a great alternative worth considering. Not sure if foam is gonna be helpful. I think theres already a product similar to what you describe for glocks
                While we're here arguing about the latest high tech running shoes, there's some Kenyan out there running barefoot. Guess who's gonna win the marathon?

                Comment

                • #9
                  ZirconJohn
                  Rattlesnake Hunter
                  CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                  • Sep 2007
                  • 10335

                  I'm just visiting... carry on...
                  .
                  "A rattlesnake that doesn't bite teaches you nothing" -- Jessamyn West
                  "Only God has the touch to create these magnificent rattlesnakes and their signature greatness in nature" -- unknown
                  .
                  ......GO HERE FOR--► My YouTube Channel

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Kodemonkey
                    • Jun 2010
                    • 2904

                    Originally posted by Ergo the Qualmed
                    the only reason I don't like that personally is because I don't like my finger being in the trigger area until I am ready to shoot. I also can see that you would need to train hard to make sure you popped that out. Not for me.

                    I have a similar concern with a DAO pistol. I have a hammer fired HD gun (HK). My wife has a DAO (M&P). She wanted to not have a round chambered for the same reason the OP states. However, she was concerned that she might forget to rack the slide under stress.

                    Our solution was to lock the slide back to the rear with a loaded mag and store the M&P in the gunvault that way. Easy to tell that the gun is not in a position to be fired even in the dark (she can even feel that it is off balance in pitch black). Eliminates an ND when pulling it out of the gunvault, but can still get it in action pretty darn quick. Also, the M&P 10 round mags are so tight it was making deep marks on the brass of the cartridges when inserted into the gun with the slide forward. This eliminates that issue too.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      lowend65
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2009
                      • 512

                      I keep one in the chamber and the gun in a quick deployment (Gunvault) safe. Having had chambered a weapon in the middle of the night during what I thought at the time was a home invasion - that slide makes a lot of noise in a silent house.
                      IMHO if you aren't awake enough to manage your finger, you probably shouldn't be touching a firearm.
                      Make sure you are awake enough and that you aren't in a semi dream state before you start shooting through walls.

                      Tough balance I know
                      Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        003
                        Veteran Member
                        • Jul 2010
                        • 3436

                        MAE Group International Inc. Providing Quality service since 1999 Military / Law Enforcement / First Responder / Outdoors Specializing in Export Management, Wholesale Distribution, Sourcing, and Freight Logistics; We have proudly established ourselves as a pioneer and leader across the globe.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          edwardm
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2005
                          • 1939

                          Wow, this thread is starting to take on a life of its own.

                          It could just be a function of how I sleep (light sleeper). I've never had an issue with that "durrrr wha?" moment when I wake up. Sure I'm not coordinated and I'm not fully aware of what is going on, but reaching for a gun is like reaching for a knife. You know how to use both, treat accordingly. I've never woken up in the morning and grabbed a knife blade-first to cut an orange or apple. I tend not to grab a pistol and fumble with the trigger, either.

                          I guess other folks may be different, and I respect that. But this should be Gun Handling 101 stuff, no?

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            randomBytes
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2012
                            • 1607

                            +1 for the holster

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              scotty99
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2009
                              • 1184

                              Perhaps invest in a good early warning / alarm system. Mine is called an Akita. It's made by the Japanese, but many fine American and German models also exist. The noise it makes is remarkably effective at bringing you to full consciousness while also giving Mr. Bad Guy an additional problem to deal with before reaching you or your family.

                              As a bonus, they keep your feet warm at night.


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