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9mm +P+ you get .357 Sig (without actually having it).
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Last edited by FiveSeven; 02-16-2012, 6:52 PM. -
Not really.
The hottest 9mm I've found is MagSafe defender at 540 ft-lbs, 1950 FPS, 64 gr
You can get 357sig from RBCD at 776 ft-lbs, 2410 FPS, 60gr.
Now that you have been informed, you may resume using shot-placement and low recoil as your regularly scheduled argument for the 9mm.Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Thomas JeffersonComment
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Really? I don't count anything below 115gr for 9mm bullet.Not really.
The hottest 9mm I've found is MagSafe defender at 540 ft-lbs, 1950 FPS, 64 gr
You can get 357sig from RBCD at 776 ft-lbs, 2410 FPS, 60gr.
Now that you have been informed, you may resume using shot-placement and low recoil as your regularly scheduled argument for the 9mm.
If anything, those are not pointed bullets like rifle or 5.7x28 they will most likely stop at 4" or so of penetrating something or disintegrate right after (HP ammo). In other words, all that speed low weigh + bullet shape makes them not all that ideal.
Ff/Lb energy is not the only thing that would be relied on for SD ammo. Otherwise no one would use .45ACP 230gr
As for 115gr and above, the performance is nearly equal of both cartridges and yes, with 9mm you get more rounds.
Between the 2, I'd get 9
BTW I carry .45 as my CCWLast edited by FiveSeven; 02-16-2012, 7:29 PM.Comment
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OK, let's talk about 115gr then
A Double Tap 9mm 115 gr gives you 511 ft-lbs and 1415 FPS
A Double Tap 357sig 115gr gives you 614 ft-lbs and 1550 fps
Even a cheap $18 box of Remington 124 gr 357sig gives you 506 ft-lbs and 1350 FPS, pretty much the exact same ballistics as the $40 box of Double Tap 9mm.
I guess I just don't understand why you and others like you always have to post bad opinions about 357sig when it's already proven to be a more powerful round. If you don't want to own a 357sig, fine. But seriously, stop crapping in every 357sig thread you see.
It's not that expensive- even basic cheap ammo is a high performance round for $18/ 50.
It's fast and flat shooting. If you ever need to take a long shot, this round excells.
It's NOT hard to find. Every gun shop I've been in has had 357sig on the shelf, and it's always available online.
It DOES penetrate barriers well. I shot a 30lb propane tank with 357sig, 45acp, and 45 long colt. The 357 sig went through both sides, the two 45's didn't even penetrate the front.
Any more questions or comments?Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Thomas JeffersonComment
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Not many people mention perceived recoil and follow-up. FOR ME the 357SIG is less snappy and easier to reacquire your target than a 40 SW OR 45ACP. I would rather have something more manageable than something that would cut someone in half.
BTW
I load'm hot too. 125 GDHP over 11gr of Blue Dot aprx. 1416 fps (556.4 ft/lbs)
IMHO...YMMV...etc, etc....Comment
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Even diehard .45 guys acknowledge that .357 magnum, especially in the light/fast 125 grain loads earned a well known (legendary?) reputation for one shot stops on the street. In fact, the invention of .357 SIG was obviously an attempt to reproduce those ballistics in a modern automatic service pistol. I don't think there's as big a body of real world performance data as .45 or .357 Mag but the LE agencies using them seem to be happy with it. Regardless of which experts agree or disagree with the theory, there's more to ballistics than just the size and weight of a bullet, otherwise a 20" AR-15 and a Walther P22 would be about the same!
I was eyeballing the Glock 33 for awhile, until I realized that a long barrel 9mm +p+ gets pretty close to .357 SIG out of a subcompact, and I could load my 10mm G29 with 135 grain bullets at true .357 Mag (~1500 fps) velocities for the same effect... Nasty!Last edited by 2nd Shot; 02-16-2012, 8:25 PM.Comment
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Marginal.. and soft steel penetration and level II BA would end up equal.
There are cheaper 9mm +p+ ammo then Double tap.(Federal Classic is one of them)Even a cheap $18 box of Remington 124 gr 357sig gives you 506 ft-lbs and 1350 FPS, pretty much the exact same ballistics as the $40 box of Double Tap 9mm.
It's called discussion and opinions, that is what the forums are all about. No one will have YOUR opinion on everything.... AND in how many threads did I say anything bad about .357 Sig? #'s? as every thread has to be #'s.I guess I just don't understand why you and others like you always have to post bad opinions about 357sig when it's already proven to be a more powerful round. If you don't want to own a 357sig, fine. But seriously, stop crapping in every 357sig thread you see.
If you like it it's fine but some people just see differentially.
Where did I state anything about price? If that's your argument then 9 is much cheaper.It's not that expensive- even basic cheap ammo is a high performance round for $18/ 50.
So is 9mm be it +p or +P+It's fast and flat shooting. If you ever need to take a long shot, this round excells.
It's still harder to find then 9 or .45It's NOT hard to find. Every gun shop I've been in has had 357sig on the shelf, and it's always available online.
In SD larger/bigger hole is more important then steel penetration and that is why I prefer .45It DOES penetrate barriers well. I shot a 30lb propane tank with 357sig, 45acp, and 45 long colt. The 357 sig went through both sides, the two 45's didn't even penetrate the front.
Not really, we could take this till no end..... If you get the point that is.Any more questions or comments?Comment
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What do these 2 pages tell us?
More people need to discover the 10mm...Comment
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Gotta be the .45 cause it's got the bigger railroad tunnel on the end.Dominance is 90% intimidation, the toughest guys rarely throw they just show up.Yes I am a proud New Orleans Saints fan.I think they need to call in a "Bounty" hit on Roger Goodell.Comment
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Here's something to ponder. Since there's no free lunch, and every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction, here's my take.
If a gun (of equal mass) recoils harder, is it not in fact depositing more energy into your target? If .357 sig kicks less than .40 (which it usually does), doesn't it make sense you're putting less energy into whatever you hit? Overpenetration also means you're no longer depositing energy into your target (*cough* 10mm haha- like I always say though, great hunting round).
Kinetic energy in ft-lbs is a bit of a red herring IMO. And until you reach RIFLE velocities (>2000 fps), you're not doing any hydrostatic damage.
I like the momentum formula for effectiveness, but this is similar (more weight given to mass and diameter):
(The .223 result is funny- why I prefer 'momentum')
Makes more sense when you think about it. Also, I would pick whichever bullet creates the largest wound cavity volume. Large wound = greatest chance to hit something vital and stop the fight. If you're lucky and find a wound volume listing from a 4 layer denim gel test, I'd pick the biggest one that works reliably in my gun. (in the igures I've seen, .40 generates a larger permanent wound cavity than .357 sig- .357 is a good soft armor/barrier penetrator, but unless you're LEO, I'd take the bigger wound).
Remember. you're never guaranteed an instant stop unless you hit brain or spine. A dead center chest hit may give the guy another 30 seconds to pump you full of bullets if he's all PCP'd up, or a tough SOB.
-DaveLast edited by saki302; 03-01-2012, 2:13 AM.Comment
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Reloading .357 sig isn't bad. It's like hand loading rifle cartridges in the sense you have to lube the cases. The only thing on .357 sig is, you need to expand the case mouth tad bit more so the bullets don't seat crookedly. When I first started I sat a lot of crooked bullets, but after tinkering with the bell on the mouth, it became just as easy as a straight walled case. I still try to make sure it's fairly straight though.
An important thing to is to use a .356 diameter bullet and have a good crimp to help keep the tension with the thin neck .357 cases have. .356 + Lee FCD does the trick.
I've noticed 1nce fired .357 sig brass is getting cheaper. I still enjoy hand loading .45 though better though.
Next project is to try to use cast bullets on my .357 sig loads.sigpicComment
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