Why not Single Action Only?

[dwightlooi]

Most of the recent semi-auto handgun designs are either DA/SA or DAO or semi-DAO like a Glock or Walther P99 (half-cock to full-cock before release).

The entire premise behind DA, DAO and semi-DAO is that the gun is normally uncocked (or insufficiently cocked) to discharge. A deliberate, heavy and long pull is needed to render the gun into a discharge capable state. This replaces or supplements the need for an external safety. The result however is that the guns have either a long and heavy trigger pull or a transition between that and a shorter, lighter pull on the 2nd shot. This begs the question... why not single action only?

Why not have a pistol that, upon racking the slide and chambering a round, fully cocks the hammer or striker. Not Glock action, but like a 1911 in full cock. There is no decocker, no way to lower the hammer or striker. There is also no safety lever like the 1911. However, the gun either has a H&K P7 like lever in the front of the grip or a spur in front of the trigger or both. When these devices are not depressed, the firing pin is blocked and the trigger is disconnected from the sear so there is no way the gun can go off. However, when properly grasped and with the trigger deliberately pulled, the gun will fire. No safety lever to swipe, no long trigger pull. Just a 0.4 mm travel, 2.5 lbs, glass break trigger.

Sure you lose primer restrike capability, but thats useless for the most parts anyway. You can always rack the slide and recock the gun losing 1 round that is probably dead anyway -- no big loss.

[Lugiahua]

Sao?
Wouldn't that be too dangerous to carry around?

[dwightlooi]

Sao?
Wouldn't that be too dangerous to carry around?

Not when the trigger won't do anything unless you grip the handle of the gun firmly depressing the front strap lever. And not when the trigger itself won't move unless you deliberately pull back on it depressing first the safety spur. If you drop the gun, the trigger is not connected, the trigger physically cannot move and the firing pin is blocked even if the sear falls for some reason.

However, if you grip the gun properly and pull back on the trigger, the gun will fire. It will fire with a light, short, crisp trigger. And, there is no safety to "forget" unless you forget to grip the handle which you can't.

[Dhena81]

Having or counting on a second strike capability is retarded IMO. I'm not really sure what your talking about but it sounds like you should get an XD it has the closest action type that your describing I think.

[Lead Waster]

I have the CZ-75b SA model, it has a safety like the 1911.

I think the Glock-like trigger is the most similar to what you are talking about, except you want it fully cocked, not semi-cocked?

[JTROKS]

Whaaaat. Tagging this to see what type of trigger mechanism you come up with.

[goldengate]

I believe you are describing the Walther PPQ.

[bigred76]

Sao?
Wouldn't that be too dangerous to carry around?

1911's have been around for a hundred years. They were designed to be carried cocked and locked. They are SAO.

OP, try an XD. They fit what you are referring to, with the exception being a grip safety on the rear of the frame like a 1911 instead of the front. Or you could always get a Series 80 1911...

[Gryff]

You have just described a Springfield XD (which can have trigger pulls down in the 2-1/2# range without the long take-up or reset).

[dwightlooi]

You have just described a Springfield XD (which can have trigger pulls down in the 2-1/2# range without the long take-up or reset).

Are you sure about that? The Glock trigger pull is about 12~13mm (1/2 inch) and about 5 pounds at the tip and about 7 pounds in the middle of the trigger. The XD pull is about the same weight, but the travel is longer and a little mushier.

I am talking about a < 0.5mm (trigger pull ~1/32 in) with no take up and no over travel. About 2.5 lbs in the middle about 2 pounds at the tip. The main safety being on the front of the grip. Like the cocker lever on the HK P7 except it doesn't cock anything, the gun is already cocked. All it does is move the trigger bar so it can act on the sear and move the firing pin block out of the way. Having the safety on the front of the grip instead of the back has the advantage of allowing the user to deliberately relax or depress the lever without losing grip on the gun. This means that the user can point the gun without depressing the lever if he so chooses. It also means that the lever can be deliberately cycled and act as a slide release upon insertion of a new magazine. Using a rear grip safety in this manner is both awkward and potentially fumble prone.

Think of it as a 1911 with an enclosed hammer but without the manual safety on the side of the gun. Instead, there is a front strap on the grip that disengages the firing mechanism's safeties when depressed and engages them when relaxed. This also serves as the slide release.

[elSquid]

Are you sure about that? The Glock trigger pull is about 12~13mm (1/2 inch) and about 5 pounds at the tip and about 7 pounds in the middle of the trigger. The XD pull is about the same weight, but the travel is longer and a little mushier.

The striker is fully cocked on the XD. Other trigger characteristics can be modified.

Think of it as a 1911 with an enclosed hammer but without the manual safety on the side of the gun.

I'll toss this out: H&K's LEM system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMJ1IhiEWY&t=1m48s

When the trigger is released, the hammer moves forwards, but the mainspring is compressed. So while the gun doesn't look cocked, it really is.

: shrug :

-- Michael

[bcj128]

Gee, they make such a pistol...a 1911. I have had several over the years. Carrying that platform takes a higher degree of training and dedication to your skills/safety ops. Mine were all also maintenance queens...lots of TLC. I don't carry one on duty anymore, but kept a Colt Commander that is still one of my favorites.

[Andy Taylor]

As already stated, you are describing a SA XD trigger system. Perhaps the XD trigger could be cleaner, but it is what you are describing.
You are also describing forunners to the 1911, such as the Colt 1910. The Army was not satisfied with the safety of these guns, so they evolved into the 1911.

[r3dn3ck]

Gee, they make such a pistol...a 1911. I have had several over the years. Carrying that platform takes a higher degree of training and dedication to your skills/safety ops. Mine were all also maintenance queens...lots of TLC. I don't carry one on duty anymore, but kept a Colt Commander that is still one of my favorites.

this here be the monkey. Apart from the senselessness of super complicated fire control systems (a 1911 is right on the edge of being too complex for my taste out of the box) you have the fact that the trigger pull itself is the only thing stopping a bullet from taking a trip because of lackluster trigger dicipline and fine precise trigger pulls of low effort and short stroke are the most likely to be tripped accidentally by poorly trained or inattentive users.

There's also the squeeze cocking feature of the HK P7 series and subsequent 4.5lbs single stage trigger. You could argue that it's not much more than a pre-load on the striker and not a real "cocking" action. I wouldn't but you can.

I'm pretty well trained with a pistol and I don't feel comfy using a 1911 for defense. Perhaps if I was an "operator" of one level or another but I ain't so my glock or a revolver does primary duty. Won't shoot by accident quite as easily.

[peterabbits]

You also pretty much described my P220 SAO model. Absolutely love it.