Gun instruction

[ZombieTactics]

Christ, and you said someone else was cultish? ...

What cult would that be exactly? The cult of think about it for a sec?

Perhaps I simply have more of a visceral reaction to demonstrable nonsense than I should, lol.

Seriously, I don't have a dog in the fight other than sense. I really don't care if someone chooses this gun or that gun ... not my business. But you don't recommend a motorcycle to everyone looking for a vehicle like these revolver nuts do. And yes, I am aware of Glock nuts and 1911 nuts ... it just doesn't happen to be a matter of discussion in the thread.

[ZombieTactics]

Would it be useful at all for "one of us" to go to the range and shoot for an hour with this couple just so they could get a taste for guns and not necessarily build up any bad habits? It might turn out that "Ugh, i hate shooting!". Someone with a .22 of course! ...

I volunteer. I'll even teach them the NRA "First Steps" course for free. I'll also I'll bring a variety of guns and discuss the pros/cons of each. Let them shoot and decide.

EDIT:
Unfortunately, they are well out of my area.

[RedFord150]

....People with odd religious/emotional attachments to some particular gun design should be avoided.

I guess this rules out you being the one to give the lesson.

The OP asked about a beginner class. An instructor recommended revolvers for this class. You personally called this a 'Giant Red Flag' (see post #19). You than started talking about multiple attackers and quick reloads and hi Cap mags. Suddenly, this became a semi-auto vs. 'Revolver Guy' thread.
I currently own 3 revolvers and 3 semi-autos. My favorite gun right now is my Dan Wesson PM7. Although my Bersa Thunder is a blast to shoot. Does this make me a 'Revolver Guy'?
In reality, I have been shooting for around 30 years and taken at least half a dozen novices to the range for their first time. That group includes my wife and daughter. The 'Hands Down' favorite among the novices I have taken is a .357 mag with a 4" barrel loaded with super mild .38 wadcutters. That big heavy revolver with mild loads and almost non-existent recoil instills a ton of confidence in a newbie. I would like the OP and his wife to get that confidence before they venture into their first multiple attacker firefight.
Think of it as a little kid playing T-Ball. No reason to face a pitcher until the kid knows how to put the ball and the bat into the same space...

[heycorey]

Slightly off topic ... any good courses in the SF Bay Area? I know Reeds shooting range offers one, but it's $300 for an 8 hour day. Seems a touch pricey.

Stretch your legs and try out some training from TFTT. They're based out of Los Angeles, but they also put on courses at Sac-Valley on occasion ... there are some pistol courses coming up soon, in fact. Their instructors are all highly experienced, real world shooters and the training is top-shelf.

[ZombieTactics]

I guess this rules out you being the one to give the lesson.

Your opinion is noted. ONCE MORE, WITH FEELING THIS TIME: Seriously, I don't have a dog in the fight other than sense. I really don't care if someone chooses this gun or that gun ... not my business. But you don't recommend a motorcycle to everyone looking for a vehicle like these revolver nuts do. And yes, I am aware of Glock nuts and 1911 nuts ... it just doesn't happen to be a matter of discussion in the thread.

In reality, I have been shooting for around 30 years and taken at least half a dozen novices to the range for their first time. That group includes my wife and daughter. ...

You and I have similar backgrounds it seems.

What appears to be a matter of difference between you and I is your constant appeal almost exclusively to emotional/irrational concerns, as though they have some kind of primacy. Your posts are peppered with references akin to "prefers", "likes", "more comfortable", "easier", "flying brass to annoy", etc.

On the other hand, the OP noted his intent to purchase 9mm semis based upon the recommendation of a CHP relative . The "red flag" I noted was based upon this simple observation. How does it make sense to recommend a a school with a stated foregoing prejudice contrary to the OPs stated preference?

If you tell me that someone should teach math, engineering, football, shooting or anything definable based upon "what feels good" ... I shudder to follow that logic to its conclusion. I'll simply assert that facts matter everytime, and that the sum of 2 and 2 is 4 whether it feels good or not. That's not really a religious position, but I am sure you feel differently about it. It probably makes you comfortable.

To assume that the student will somehow be too "uh-scared", "uncomfortable" or otherwise emotionally incapable of simply learning a new skill strikes me as infantilizing another human being unnecessarily, especially absent their consent. This is especially true when done so in the face of the students stated eagerness to learn. It's arrogant and disrespectful on its face, IMHO. I choose to treat others as mature equals ... or help them become such.

You are perhaps correct. Anyone wishing to be treated as a child should rule me out as an instructor. If you give me your number, I'll send them your way.

[tacticalcity]

Would it be useful at all for "one of us" to go to the range and shoot for an hour with this couple just so they could get a taste for guns and not necessarily build up any bad habits? It might turn out that "Ugh, i hate shooting!". Someone with a .22 of course!

Slightly off topic ... any good courses in the SF Bay Area? I know Reeds shooting range offers one, but it's $300 for an 8 hour day. Seems a touch pricey.

The 22lr argument is another one with two distinct camps in it. So great, you opened up another can of worms.

The argument on the otherside is that all the benefits you would get from a 22lr you would get from dry fire, which is required to master your 9mm or above gun anyway. So you might as well train with something you can use as a defensive weapon instead of buying both a 22lr and then a more powerful weapon later. Especially since too many people by the 22lr and then never buy the more effective defensive weapon. Unless you get very, very lucky that 22lr is just gonna make bad guy very, very mad.

Most professional schools will not let you attend their course with anything less than a 9mm. Since he is interested in getting that training, a 22lr would not be in his particular best interest.

But I have no problem with him trying one out if somebody near him was kind enough to treat him to a range trip, as I suggested I would if he were closer.

As for a school near you, there probably is one right in your backyard. Check out the Competition, Action-Shooting and Training secion here on Calguns.

Up here in Sacramento there is Gray Ops Firearms Training http://gofast1.com/. That's not too far of drive. I've taken 3 courses with and they were great. They offer 1 day courses starting around $160. You have to watch their scheduel closely. These are off duty SWAT and retired LE guys. So they offer the courses once a month, one level per month, per weapon system. So you have to catch the right cycle to get Tactical Pistol I, then take II the next month or cycle later, then II the next after that. If you time it right and plan ahead it works out great. If you try and do it at the last minute then have to get lucky.

I've seen LMS Defense offer course in San Jose. They have instructors all over the country and offer courses in different locations at different times. It's not an every weekend thing either. The former owner of Gray Ops (was called Stone Cobra Tactical at the time) now works for LMS Defense part time and as a private military contractor the rest of the time. Great guy. The owner of Alpha Safety Training also works for LMS Defense part time. Another great guy who is an Afghanistan/Iraq war veteran and still serves as a Corpsman in the reserves (and keeps deploying to hot zones left and right). So I would take/recommend their courses with absolute confidence. Great instructors who both became friends after training with them. Two men I greatly admire.

[ocmsrzr]

TFTT is top shelf, I have trained with them extensively in the past. Max will make you work for that black shirt. Lol, Max is not for the faint of heart.

[zfields]

Your opinion is noted. ONCE MORE, WITH FEELING THIS TIME: Seriously, I don't have a dog in the fight other than sense. I really don't care if someone chooses this gun or that gun ... not my business. But you don't recommend a motorcycle to everyone looking for a vehicle like these revolver nuts do. And yes, I am aware of Glock nuts and 1911 nuts ... it just doesn't happen to be a matter of discussion in the thread.

You and I have similar backgrounds it seems.

What appears to be a matter of difference between you and I is your constant appeal almost exclusively to emotional/irrational concerns, as though they have some kind of primacy. Your posts are peppered with references akin to "prefers", "likes", "more comfortable", "easier", "flying brass to annoy", etc.

On the other hand, the OP noted his intent to purchase 9mm semis based upon the recommendation of a CHP relative ... how does the constant recommendation of a revolver based upon emotional/irrational factors help?

If you tell me that someone should teach math, engineering, football, shooting or anything definable based upon "what feels good" ... I shudder to follow that logic to its conclusion. I'll simply assert that facts matter everytime, and that the sum of 2 and 2 is 4 whether it feels good or not. That's not really a religious position, but I am sure you feel differently about it. It probably makes you comfortable.

To assume that the student will somehow be too "uh-scared", "uncomfortable" or otherwise emotionally incapable of simply learning a new skill strikes me as infantilizing another human being unnecessarily, especially absent their consent. It's arrogant and disrespectful on its face, and I choose to treat others as mature equals ... or help them become such.

Your dog in this fight is for your opinions and what you have been taught to be considered the "way" people should choose there firearms. If you dont think you are coming off that way, you really need to reread your post.

Anytime someone brings up a different opinion, you site a few trainers/reports etc. that show your point of view. If you dig deep enough, you can find data somewhere that will back just about any point of view when it comes to firearms.


For the record, Im 100% for semi autos, 9mm above, and training/practicing enough to know how to use it.

The 22lr argument is another one with two distinct camps in it. So great, you opened up another can of worms.

The argument on the otherside is that all the benefits you would get from a 22lr you would get from dry fire, which is required to master your 9mm or above gun anyway. So you might as well train with something you can use as a defensive weapon instead of buying both a 22lr and then a more powerful weapon later. Especially since too many people by the 22lr and then never buy the more effective defensive weapon.

Most professional schools will not let you attend their course with anything less than a 9mm. Since he is interested in getting that training, a 22lr would not be in his particular best interest.

But I have no problem with him trying one out if somebody near him was kind enough to treat him to a range trip, as I suggested I would if he were closer.

As for a school near you, there probably is one right in your backyard. Check out the Competition, Action-Shooting and Training secion here on Calguns.

Up here in Sacramento there is Gray Ops Firearms Training http://gofast1.com/. That's not too far of drive.

Ive never quite understood the 22lr concept in handguns. In rifles, its a *little* more fitting since you are familiarizing on the platform, and you get a ton of malfunction clearing experience
But in handgun, were recoil is much more a factor, it just seems dumb.


But the way i think the original poster about 22lr ment was just to get someone involved in shooting, which I understand. Just dont get em to stuck on it : )

As for gray ops. I regret not taking a class with them before I moved. I hear nothing but the best from them.

[tacticalcity]

Stretch your legs and try out some training from TFTT. They're based out of Los Angeles, but they also put on courses at Sac-Valley on occasion ... there are some pistol courses coming up soon, in fact. Their instructors are all highly experienced, real world shooters and the training is top-shelf.

I've heard excellent things about them as well.

It's a trend. You will find few negative comments about shooting schools, because they are like Disneyland for gun owners. They open up an entire new world for shooters who thought slow plinking on the range was the only way they would ever train. I cannot stress how much of a worth wild experience a profession course is, even for the most experience shooter.

[ZombieTactics]

Your dog in this fight is for your opinions and what you have been taught to be considered the "way" people should choose there firearms. If you dont think you are coming off that way, you really need to reread your post. ...

Whether accurate or not, that's hardly a damning assertion. I recognize fully that I argue forcefully, and that this isn't everyone's cup of tea.

You are correct that I cite or refer to various reports from recognized and established sources. I suggest only that this carries more weight than citing ones own raw, unsupported opinion or something based upon feelings and emotional commitments ... nothing more. To note that my opinions are based upon something (at least ostensibly) objective is hardly a damning assertion, either.

... Ive never quite understood the 22lr concept in handguns. ...

There's a correlation to revolver discussion ... some people choose (for whatever reason) based upon the notion of getting just enough to feel comfortable. It's also referred to as the school of "buying just little enough advertising to prove that it won't work". In some ways it's akin to Noah only taking one of each animal on the Ark ... to save money and because it's easier to clean up after. There's a point there.

[whipkiller]

Wow... just wow.

If I were the OP (who in case you haven't noticed is no longer posting in his thread) I would be hesitant to ever ask another question on the forum again, and I might even be a little frightened of you "Gun Nuts".

Nice job guys.

[tacticalcity]

I guess this rules out you being the one to give the lesson.

The OP asked about a beginner class. An instructor recommended revolvers for this class. You personally called this a 'Giant Red Flag' (see post #19). You than started talking about multiple attackers and quick reloads and hi Cap mags. Suddenly, this became a semi-auto vs. 'Revolver Guy' thread.
I currently own 3 revolvers and 3 semi-autos. My favorite gun right now is my Dan Wesson PM7. Although my Bersa Thunder is a blast to shoot. Does this make me a 'Revolver Guy'?
In reality, I have been shooting for around 30 years and taken at least half a dozen novices to the range for their first time. That group includes my wife and daughter. The 'Hands Down' favorite among the novices I have taken is a .357 mag with a 4" barrel loaded with super mild .38 wadcutters. That big heavy revolver with mild loads and almost non-existent recoil instills a ton of confidence in a newbie. I would like the OP and his wife to get that confidence before they venture into their first multiple attacker firefight.
Think of it as a little kid playing T-Ball. No reason to face a pitcher until the kid knows how to put the ball and the bat into the same space...

Regarless of either of our own personal preferrances it is very unusual. I take a lot of courses, from lots of different schools. Never seen that before. So it raises questions...whether you think that's good or bad is matter of personal preferrance.

He said he wants a 9mm semi. You prefer revolvers for beginners to learn on...but your force feeding him your preferrance like his sucks or something. Many if not most professional shooters would recommend the 9mm semi for a beginner...if only because most shooters don't buy a boat load of guns and become totally obsessed with collecting them like we have. At the very least they would agree it is one of many great places to start rather than force feed their preferrance.

You made your point clear without suggesting we're nuts or think unicorns are real, and I respect that. You backed up your opinion with details and that's appriciated. We heard you. But ZT, myself, and other fans of semi-autos even for beginners are not going to be converted any more than we will convert you. Our backgrounds are just as impressive. 30 plus years of shooting (20 in my case since I am younger and my addiction started while serving in the military), lots of training, military/law enforcement backgrounds, and so on. We're all old dogs with our own particular bones to chew and favorite types of kibble.

[zfields]

Whether accurate or not, that's hardly a damning assertion.

You are correct that I cite or refer to various reports from recognized and established sources. I suggest only that this carries more weight than citing ones own raw, unsupported opinion or something based upon feelings and emotional commitments ... nothing more. To note that my opinions are based upon something (at least ostensibly) objective is hardly a damning assertion, either.

Im not saying its bad to have sources for your information, but when you essentially tell people they are wrong for not agreeing with your opinion on their choice in firearms, that is where your pushiness on the subject gets to the point where it damages all the good points you bring up.


see, I can do fancy italics also.

[zfields]

Regarless of either of our own personal preferrances it is very unusual. I take a lot of courses, from lots of different schools. Never seen that before. So it raises questions...whether you thing that's good of bad is personal preferrance.

He said he wants a 9mm semi. You prefer revolvers...but your force feeding him your preferrance like his sucks or something. Many if not most professional shooters would recommend the 9mm semi for a beginner. At the very least they would agree it is one of many great places to start rather than force feed their preferrance.

You made you point clear. We heard you. But ZT, myself, and other fans of semi-autos are not going to be converted any more than we will convert you. Our backgrounds are just as impressive. 30 plus years of shooting, lots of training, military/law enforcement backgrounds. So were all dogs with our own particular bones to chew.

Id love to see someone suggest a semi auto for my Mother or girlfriend, then try to watch them try to rack the son of a *****.

We may never hear what context that one specific instructor recommended that revolver in.
For some people, revolvers are the right choice, no matter what a professional shooter may say. For someone who isnt going out and training on malfuction clearance, speed reloads, and all the other fun stuff we all do at the range/in matches, some people just want something simple that will go bang if they need it. I dont feel its doing your due diligence as a gun owner, but thats beyond the point.




Ok your right Tactical, Im just having a good time now.

[ZombieTactics]

... see, I can do fancy italics also ...

Seriously ... this bothers you or something? Do you get out of the hothouse often?

... For some people, revolvers are the right choice, ...

Who claimed otherwise?

Id love to see someone suggest a semi auto for my Mother or girlfriend, then try to watch them try to rack the son of a *****.
...

It requires nothing in the way of strength or special skill, I assure you. It requires only a willingness to learn unless there is a particular handicap involved. Perhaps they'd be encouraged if they saw my 94-year-old mother, my 9-year-old daughter, and my wife (who has Multiple Sclerosis) do so regularly without trouble?