Capacity vs. stopping power.

[ZombieTactics]

My personal opinion, but one based upon a helluva lot of study over many years:

A few things come to mind, especially the stats that show that only something like 20% or so of shots fired actually hit the BG at all, with no reliable data on % of "good" vs. "peripheral" hits.

A lot of data indicates that you better be prepared to make multiple good hits, if you want quick incapacitation, regardless of caliber or round type. As such, it seems you probably need 10 or more rounds per BG.

Most information seems to indicate that a tactical or emergency reload never happens in a real-world gun fight, unless there is a standoff situation or protracted conflict from behind cover. The very few protracted conflicts are almost always LE, not ordinary citizens.

A lot of data indicates that violent criminals travels in pairs or packs, and that this trend is becoming even more the norm. 10 rounds or less probably means you're screwed to begin with, so train hard.

I have legally-owned "normal" and "extended capacity" magazines. I carry them whenever legal and practical to do so, by whatever means are legal and practical. 15-17 round mags, a quantity of 3, seems like a rational minimum to me. It should be noted as well that most are of the opinion that the fastest "reload" is to have another gun.

[tacticalcity]

Originally Posted by Cokebottle
Shot placement is everything.

A poorly placed S&W500 will not stop the threat.
A well placed .22lr will stop the threat.

The "best" caliber and firearm is the one that you are most comfortable and most accurate with.
Given that for the most part California limits us to 10 rounds, there's not a huge difference in capacity... but in a free state, or pre-ban magazines, I'd take 9mm over my 1911

I would phrase that as a properly placed 22lr might stop a bad guy. I don't care who you are, you cannot guarentee hitting the actual eye of a moving target. Best you can guarentee for is that area of the head. So using a round, either by caliber or type that is not likely to penetrate the skull as a primary self defense round is a bad idea.

That said, you don't want to go overkill on power either. The movies and TV shows are the only place where you can fire one shot and the bad guy goes flying backwards 10 feet. In real life, no matter how powerful the round it is probably going to take several rounds fired in rapid succession placed in vital areas to stop the bad guy. If the recoil from your round slows you down to the point that you only get a round or two off then the odds are definately NOT in your favor, even if you are using a .50 caliber round. Because anywhere short of hitting the occular cavity and one shot is not going to be enough. Not unless your attacker is completely unmotivated in the first place. In which case, you didn't need to shoot him.

It is a balance between firepower and knockdown power. It all comes down to what you can reliably control. More often than not guys egos overshaddow their actual ability. They get these massive caliber handguns, but can't get off two rounds in a reasonable time frame for self defense. Much less five.

If you cannot accurately put 3-5 rounds into your attackers vital organs in less than say 2 seconds starting from the concealed holster at 12-15 yards without any round being sent to "whom it may concern" then you are using too large a caliber and need to drop down a size or more. That is being generous, because 2 seconds is actually a nightmarishly long time in a firefight.

You also have to factor in multiple hostiles. If my only gun is my handgun I would much rather have the 15 9mm rounds from my Glock 17 to the 7 45acp rounds from my Kimber Custom II 1911 (don't top off your magazines or you will have malfunctions all day long). Not only am I much faster, and can guarentee the speed and placement of my 3-5 round non-standard responses and 1-2 round failure to stops (headshots) but I know I will have enough rounds for more than one bad guy.

I don't want to gamble that 7 rounds will be enough, no matter how powerful they are. Plus I don't like how long it takes me to put them where they need to be. Other, much stronger shooters however can control them just fine. So the human factor plays a major role in caliber choice. You have to make an honest assessment of your abilities, checking your ego at the door while you do so.

[locosway]

Definitely worth the listen.

Since the body will in fact have a profound reaction to being shot in different areas, I've never been a big proponent of multiple center mass shots. A shot to the arm may disarm an attacker, a shot to the knee may immobilize an attacker, and so on.

It is not uncommon to hear about attackers that are able to persist in fighting after sustaining a chest wound. I'm not suggesting specific targeting of limbs, but trying to group shots into the upper torso may not always prove to be a viable option.

There are two fight stopping things. Blood loss, and nerve damage. There might be other things that could stop a fight, like shock, finding out they might die, etc. But nothing is guaranteed besides blood loss and/or nerve damage.

If you want to see what a lack of a critical hit does, look at the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami.

[Press Check]

There are two fight stopping things. Blood loss, and nerve damage. There might be other things that could stop a fight, like shock, finding out they might die, etc. But nothing is guaranteed besides blood loss and/or nerve damage.

If you want to see what a lack of a critical hit does, look at the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami.

There aren't many men like Michael Platt in this world.

If I'm not mistaken, he took upwards of 12 direct hits, and his ability to continue fighting had absolutely nothing to do with caliber or shot placement as opposed to this mans shear determination to evade capture, but more importantly, his IRON will to live.

In the aftermath, the FBI concluded that the best course of action was to increase the caliber of their service pistols, completely ignoring the fact that Michael Platt withstood a direct shotgun blast at close range as well.

[locosway]

There aren't many men like Michael Platt in this world.

If I'm not mistaken, he took upwards of 12 direct hits, and his ability to continue fighting had absolutely nothing to do with caliber or shot placement as opposed to this mans shear determination to evade capture, but more importantly, his IRON will to live.

In the aftermath, the FBI concluded that the best course of action was to increase the caliber of their service pistols, completely ignoring the fact that Michael Platt withstood a direct shotgun blast at close range as well.

There may not be many like him, but there are enough like him to worry. Like I said, blood loss, or a nerve injury would have stopped him. Outside of that, he just kept going like he was the Terminator.

So, shot placement is king.

[elSquid]

If I'm not mistaken, he took upwards of 12 direct hits, and his ability to continue fighting had absolutely nothing to do with caliber or shot placement as opposed to this mans shear determination to evade capture, but more importantly, his IRON will to live.

In the aftermath, the FBI concluded that the best course of action was to increase the caliber of their service pistols, completely ignoring the fact that Michael Platt withstood a direct shotgun blast at close range as well.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

Early on in the fight, Matix was shot in the side of the head; this temporarily stunned him.

From the link:



Platt took a round that went through his arm and stopped short of his heart.



So you can kind of see why the FBI started down the "penetration" path. Both of these hits occurred early in the fight. If the round that hit Platt penetrated the heart, would that have stopped the fight before he had a chance to do real damage?



-- Michael

[Press Check]

I agree to a certain extent, but...

Matix sustained gunshots to the neck and head, which did nothing more than knock him out temporarily until he regained consciousness later, and got back in the car. At that point, he had been shot 3 times. It wasn't until later that he sustained a 4th gunshot that fatally wounded him.

Towards the middle of the fight, Platt had sustained 5 gunshots, one of which was a critical shot to the chest, causing his lung to collapse, yet he left his position, quickly advanced towards the Federal Agents, killed two of them at point-blank range, and retreated back to his position, and continued fighting until he was shot 7 more times.

In this situation, capacity was key.

If I'm not mistaken, Platt had been shot with a 9mm, 38 Special +P, 357 Magnum, plus a shotgun. A 45ACP in this situation would have had little to no impact on the outcome, nor ended the fight any sooner.

[osxgp]

Talk about beating a dead horse. The 9mm guys will never convice the .45 guys to change and vice versa. Bottom line is use what you are comfortable with but dont assume that more is better. Realistically, how many of you feel you would shoot through multiple hi-cap mags in a firefight? Life isnt like the movies. If that were to happen and you survived, imagine the consequinces the way attorneys are now. Say what you want but the aftermath could make life worse than surviving. Also, most of these capacity related examples were about trained people going into harms way, not civillians at home. I guarantee if someone or some people were doing a home invasion and heard a pump action shotgun chamber a round, they will leave as fast as possible.

[bsg]

for myself... reliability is king. caliber and capacity sit a little to the rear of reliability.

i feel most competent and confident with w german Sigs in either 9mm or .45 ACP. in warm months i go to a 9mm or .45 ACP; either P225, P226 or P220. in colder months i'm liking the P220 .45 ACP.

G26 is the subcompact if needed.

[locosway]

I agree to a certain extent, but...

Matix sustained gunshots to the neck and head, which did nothing more than knock him out temporarily until he regained consciousness later, and got back in the car. At that point, he had been shot 3 times. It wasn't until later that he sustained a 4th gunshot that fatally wounded him.

Towards the middle of the fight, Platt had sustained 5 gunshots, one of which was a critical shot to the chest, causing his lung to collapse, yet he left his position, quickly advanced towards the Federal Agents, killed two of them at point-blank range, and retreated back to his position, and continued fighting until he was shot 7 more times.

In this situation, capacity was key.

If I'm not mistaken, Platt had been shot with a 9mm, 38 Special +P, 357 Magnum, plus a shotgun. A 45ACP in this situation would have had little to no impact on the outcome, nor ended the fight any sooner.

Capacity, but only because it gives you more chances at shot placement. Penetration is key, obviously, but you need placement more than anything. As I posted before, there's only two things that will guarantee a stop. Platt was able to move around even with all the damage to his body. However, what stopped him in the end was the severed artery which resulted in blood loss. No matter what, once the brain has no oxygen, you're out of the fight. Or, sever a nerve, and that's a fight stopper too.

[Press Check]

Talk about beating a dead horse. The 9mm guys will never convice the .45 guys to change and vice versa. Bottom line is use what you are comfortable with but dont assume that more is better. Realistically, how many of you feel you would shoot through multiple hi-cap mags in a firefight? Life isnt like the movies. If that were to happen and you survived, imagine the consequinces the way attorneys are now. Say what you want but the aftermath could make life worse than surviving. Also, most of these capacity related examples were about trained people going into harms way, not civillians at home. I guarantee if someone or some people were doing a home invasion and heard a pump action shotgun chamber a round, they will leave as fast as possible.

For me, a hi-cap 9mm is the most viable option. God forbid, but if necessary, easy to shoot, easy to place follow-up shots, and I could personally care less about what others choose for HD. I'd rather have 8 unspent rounds in the magazine that I didn't need rather than needed them and not had them.

If you can place fast follow-up shots with a 45 and eliminate the threat with 8 rounds, more power to ya. If your obvious plan is to strike fear in the heart of a BG by chambering a shotgun round, more power to ya as well, but you did mention being realistic, right?

Regardless of the examples involving trained LE, these are the same LE being outgunned, injured and killed by BG's with virtually no training.

If you're worried about the aftermath following an engagement with a BG, or worried about attorney's, I'd venture to say that you have no family to protect. Personally, I'd rather have my family alive and defend my actions in court than to be dead.

And who cares about beating a dead horse? Anytime someone conlcudes that they want to buy something for HD, these threads are going to surface, followed by the age-old debate of caliber. If you'd prefer not discuss the circumstances in which you'd use your weapon, again, more power to ya.

[stormy_clothing]

if your in a situation where you need a 30 round pistol magazine it better be for covering fire so you can be smart and run the hell out of there.

My glock is filled with 147gr +P in 9mm and I want for nothing more.

[Bavaria1990]

I know from experience, that when you need more than what is loaded in your gun, you are better off running or driving away

I keep my 92fs loaded 15+1
then 3 15rders in the glove box

Used to have a draco in my trunk with a 4 30 rd mags

[BigDogatPlay]

If you want to see what a lack of a critical hit does, look at the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami.

The bureau guys in that event, most specifically Agents Grogan and Dove (who were both killed), scored critical, some later deemed fatal, hits early on in the fight. But the bad guys fought on. Conversely I've seen people shot once with a .22 or round nose lead .38 special stretched out in the morgue. Shot placement is paramount but the X factor in any fight is what is the opponents mental condition.

The caliber wars will likely go on forever, but the bottom line is that modern bullet design will go a long way toward getting the job done. LAPD and LASD have proven that modern bullets in 9mm at standard pressure can and will win gunfights.

FWIW, my go to at home currently is a Sig P239 stoked with 147 grain HST, ten round mag in the gun and two 8 round mags alongside. And I feel very well armed. This is from a guy who carried .45 and later .40 on the street for many years.

[sholling]

If I were a LEO facing the possibility of prolonged shootouts I'd consider capacity a plus but not a make or break issue. You can always carry extra magazines or go with a high-capacity 45 pistol. As a civilian simply looking to survive an attack I want to put a stop to that attack as fast as possible with as few rounds as possible (starting with 2) and not have to explain why the ground is littered with brass and that means a 45 loaded with super premium ammunition. It's also a heck of a lot easier and more comfortable to conceal single stack magazines.