Do you compete, why not?

[HighLander51]

Are you really afraid of potentially doing something alone?

See, that's my secret. I don't want to make any new friends.

no seriously, competition is a great way to meet new shooters, and learn alot. Everyone had to start somewhere, and usually near the bottom.

The very first match Mike Dalton ever shot, he placed 2nd to last. Course it didn't take him long to fix that.....

[Ripon83]

I don't dare. If I didn't win I'd be upset about it and start going broke practicing till I did....no way....I'm too damn competitive.

[ZombieTactics]

I'll offer another perspective:

I've trained with many instructors who advise against competing a lot in "gun games" if your genuine purpose is to train how you'll fight for the purpose of self-defense. While this opinion hasn't been universal, those holding to it seem to be among those with the most real world experience ... LE, Military, etc. who have been in actual shootings.

In the (admittedly few) force-on-force scenarios I've observed (or run against) these types of competitors ... they are usually toast, as they have developed far too many gun-game "training scars" which don't quite match up well with real human opponents. My initial observations are that it would be suicidal insanity to ever attempt to defend oneself using the "winning" techniques which seem popular in some of these matches.

Even so, I see a lot of value in the idea of running different scenarios under the pressure of competition.

It's still an open issue for me, and I really should shoot a few matches before forming a solid opinion, but I thought I'd just provoke some discussion.

[HighLander51]

ZombieTactics,those holding to it seem to be among those with the most real world experience ... LE, Military, etc. who have been in actual shootings.

That is a reason that seems to echo most from those who take repeated training. So not to deviate from the OP, but.....

I absolutely and completely disagree. Most of the guys I shoot with are cops, and half of them are SWAT cops. There is no substitute for speed and accuracy.

Have you ever seen 'trainers' compete?

[HK35]

I compete in action pistol for the fun. I never think of it as real world since the opponent can't shoot back. To me, it's just plain fun and it tests my skills under pressure while practicing the techniques I learned from training. This means I will use cover and slice the pie. Which in turn means my time will be slower than those who don't.

[elSquid]

I've trained with many instructors who advise against competing a lot in "gun games" if your genuine purpose is to train how you'll fight for the purpose of self-defense. While this opinion hasn't been universal, those holding to it seem to be among those with the most real world experience ... LE, Military, etc. who have been in actual shootings.

OTOH, Jim Cirillo ( ~20 gunfights ) and Bill Allard ( ~40 gunfights ) of the NYPD stakeout squad were diehard PPC (!) and Bullseye (!!) competitors. Allard won a couple of trophies at Camp Perry.

http://www.officer.com/article/10233763/accuracy-speeds-important-partner

Jim Cirillo and Bill Allard, partners in the old NYPD Stakeout Squad, both tell of their gunfights in different ways. One point they always agreed on, however, was that it was of paramount importance to line your sights up on your target, then start shooting. Bill Allard, in a recent interview on one of our Pro Arms podcasts said: "It isn't the person that breaks the first shot that wins the gunfight; it's the first person that places the first accurate shot in the opponent that walks away a winner. So don't rush. Speed doesn't win the gunfight; accuracy does. Accuracy is paramount; everything else is secondary." Bill shot more bad guys than any of the other unit members. He was never hit in any of those NYPD gunfights and was known as a "never miss" member of the team.

-- Michael

[HighLander51]

This means I will use cover and slice the pie. Made popular by IDPA, which was invented by a great IPSC shooter.

However, no one that I shoot with believes that competition is a substitute for tactical training or simunitions training. It is a different application. Imagine a 'house clearing' stage in competition. If you did it tactically correct, it would take 2 hours and there would be no shots fired. Instead, we view it as complementary, emphasing speed and accuracry. You do the same things you do in training, just a lot faster.

[ZombieTactics]

... There is no substitute for speed and accuracy. ...

Well, I think not getting shot ranks high on the list as well. I generally observe what I think are superior weapons-manipulation skills on the part of competitive shooters. There is a lot of value in that without a doubt. The games can form some bad habits though ... the kind that get you shot.

I think it would be useful (and perhaps eye-opening) if some of these organizations worked in an F-on-F scenario as a part of every competition ... kind of like how NASCAR has a couple of road courses in the series every year. At the very least it would serve to break that "I already have been shown the course of fire and have observed 12 other people running it" mindset which leads people to go running through open doors directly into fatal funnels.

... However, no one that I shoot with believes that competition is a substitute for tactical training or simunitions training. It is a different application. Imagine a 'house clearing' stage in competition. If you did it tactically correct, it would take 2 hours and there would be no shots fired. ...

In other words - in the real world - some things just might substitute for speed and accuracy?

I share your perspective. I think - to some degree - "all training is good training", as long as one does not lose perspective.

[stix213]

I don't compete yet because I haven't thought I was good enough. But I took a pistol class over the weekend, and was shooting much better by the end of the class, to the point I was surprised I was the one who made one ragged hole at 10 yards. Might reconsider in the future if I keep improving.

[HighLander51]

ZombieTactics,In other words - in the real world - some things just might substitute for speed and accuracy?

Trying not to deviate from the OPs post, but, no, there is never a substitute for speed and accuracy. Just because you go slow in a house clearing doesn't mean that you don't shoot faster and more accurately than your opponent when it comes to it. Thats what the competition part is for.

[kanikas]

The games can form some bad habits though ... the kind that get you shot.

I would agree with this statement. Not saying they're bad per se, but games and competitions require rules and regulations that allow for fair play between competitors. If I find myself in a fight for my life, fair play is going right out the window.

And let's not forget this IDPA video that I'm sure we've all seen. Since I found it on the internet, I am certain that it represents an even-handed, well-balanced approach to its subject matter.

[ZombieTactics]

I'd be interested in knowing - especially from the IDPA folks - if you have any opinions regarding adding force-on-force to the mix?

[winnre]

Speaking of competition, I just watched "Winchester '73" last night!

[mortman]

instructors

Hi,
Our monthly shoots are full of instructors and professionals. Some instructors, perhaps, would not care to have their asses handed to them.
-M

[Chief-7700]

I shoot IDPA, Steel Challenge, Large Bore Falling Plates, Bowling Pin and Rimfire Rifle Falling Plate matches.