double strike capability

[RollingCode3]

The range isn't real life. No matter what some instructor says, or how "real" the training will be, you'll never be able to duplicate the adrenaline, the stress, and the sensation of having to defend yourself from a real threat. As a result, for the same reason that people in defensive shootings often don't hear the sound of their weapon, they also don't instantly recognize that the hammer has fallen on a dud round. Its not a training issue, its a motor function/sensory issue.

And as in the other thread, you're still wrong because its almost a 100% certainty that while under the stress of a defensive shooting, you're going to pull the trigger twice anyways. So the question isn't whether there is a utility to having second strike capability, the question is whether you want the hammer to strike the firing pin a second time when you pull the trigger after a dud, or whether you are just going to pull against an already depressed trigger.

Why twice? Why stop pulling the trigger at the second time? Not third or fourth time? According to you, in a high stress situation, you're going to be pulling the trigger so fast that you wont even register a failure. Meaning, if round two fails, would you have possibly pulled the trigger a 3rd and maybe even a fourth time before you consciously make note of the failure? Would your adrenaline and fear cause you to keep pulling even after you didn't feel any recoil or note any loud bang? That is the reason why I stay away from DA/SA handguns. Call me whatever you want, but I will have my GLock/M&P on my hip or nightstand.

When the gun doesn't go off, I will get that round out of my gun. Doesn't matter the 2nd strike feature to me for like standby mentioned, the remedial drills you have practice will automatically take over. The concept of a second strike capability came about as a way to market the first DA/SA pistols. It's one of many concepts that may sound good to the uniformed but in reality is quite worthless. Train how you fight, fight how you train. I want the tap/rack to be automatic when I need it. Based on this methodology, second-strike is of absolutely no value to me.

[bohoki]

i alwasy though it was weird how meeple complain about that but there is no double stike in ar,ak,m1a,ruger mini in fact i cant think of a single double action selfloading rifle

[STAGE 2]

When the gun doesn't go off, I will get that round out of my gun. Doesn't matter the 2nd strike feature to me for like standby mentioned, the remedial drills you have practice will automatically take over.

Tap rack bang all you want, but I promise you that you wont notice the round didn't go off until after you've pulled the trigger and it wont go anywhere. Of course you could be superhuman and have your fingers register things before your brain does, but I'm going to wager you're just like the rest of us mere mortals.

Case in point, from a discussion on this issue from another gun forum...

When the adrenaline gets going and I'm in the thick of things, I can't stop my finger from pulling the trigger a second time before my brain registers that I had a malfunction. I believe it may be easier with a stovepipe (but then, stovepipes are pretty hard to come by when using good firearms). My routine ends up being click, click, tap-rackbang!

I remember reading in a gun rag (take it for what its worth) that a certain percentage of cartridges that misfire on the first primer strike will fire on the second primer strike. The percentage was fairly high IIRC. Now, I'll agree that it would be best if after a misfire a tap-rack-bang! were performed, but in real life it may not happen that way for me.

[DannyZRC]

a lot of people here are confusing the position that a restrike could possibly be a tiny bit useful with the position that you shouldn't TRB but instead try a dud a 2nd time.

plenty of people have worked triggers on rifles that have run dry otherwise failed to fire.

[Coded-Dude]

I get FTF's on some surplus ammo and it usually fires the second time. Actually it almost always fires the second time. I'm usually at the range, so I just eject the bullet, examine it, and reload it into another magazine(rather than cocking the hammer and trying again)

[sigfan91]

In before the Sig people show up and call me a Glock fanboy because I dont like the double strike capability.

I said it before and I will say it again.. Second strike capability in a semi is useless as a rock in a gun fight. In a defensive situation, standing there pulling the trigger again will get you killed. If I pull the trigger and all I hear is a click, I want that round out of my gun asap. If it doesn't go off the first time, I am getting it "THE HELL" out of my gun for a round that will. Why do you want to stand there waste your time with it.

TAP RACK BANG is a commonly taught malfunction drill..."TRAIN THE WAY YOU FIGHT. FIGHT THE WAY YOU TRAIN." Here's the problem--what you do in practice, you'll do under stress. I've practiced enough that when I hit a dud round, I pretty much go right to "TAP, RACK, and BANG" without thinking about it; clear the stoppage and move on with life. In a life or death situation, I am not going to stand there to figure out which option should i use: pulling the trigger again or tap rack and bang.

If you really think about it, trying a '2nd Strike' actually wastes precious time and could get you killed. Chances are if you get a bad primer, 2nd strike probably won't solve the issue, you'll still have to tap and rack and get back on target.

I will put my flame jacket on before the Sig people show up.

I'm a sig fan boy and I agree with you.

[Mute]

I can count, on one hand, the number of times I've managed to fire off a shot from a second strike of the primer. Actually, I don't need any hands because I've never had it happen. Second strike capability is not something I consider to be a priority of any sort on a handgun meant for defensive use. Granted I'm a 1911 guy, but base on my experience with dud primers, the odds are not in favor of a positive result from making a second strike.

Regardless of how many times you pull or don't pull the trigger after a failure to fire, you need to practice and learn to quickly and effectively do a TRB as soon as your mind has registered the failure to fire.