double strike capability

[sirgiles]

i was always taught in the classes i've attended to do a "tap, rack, bang"(TRB) whenever my pistol goes click.
are there any merits to having a double strike system? is there a class that uses this system as alternative? is this technique being employed?

[cineski]

What happens if the round doesn't go off on strike #2? Tap and rack no matter what.

[homerm14]

Of course there is merit to it, but 9 times out of 10 if it don't go bang the first time it won't the second. Keep doing what you were taught tap, rack, bang will solve more problems.

[DannyZRC]

chance that a round that didn't ignite on the first strike will ignite on the second: high.

chance that the gun not firing was due to an empty chamber or other condition unrelated to primers/double strikes : high.

chance that you'll pull the trigger a 2nd time before you get to the TRB during a stress situation : high.

nobody trains 2nd strike, because you're already wired to go "I want to shoot, so I'll pull the trigger", 2nd strike is essentially a trainingless freebie, but one that almost never ever comes into play (unless you're lightening up your mainspring for a light trigger, then you'll start seeing light strikes... don't do it ).

[G-forceJunkie]

I dissagre. Rarely have I had a second strike fire the cartrage. Sometimes on rimfire if a different part of the rim is hit.

chance that a round that didn't ignite on the first strike will ignite on the second: high.

[RollingCode3]

In before the Sig people show up and call me a Glock fanboy because I dont like the double strike capability.

I said it before and I will say it again.. Second strike capability in a semi is useless as a rock in a gun fight. In a defensive situation, standing there pulling the trigger again will get you killed. If I pull the trigger and all I hear is a click, I want that round out of my gun asap. If it doesn't go off the first time, I am getting it "THE HELL" out of my gun for a round that will. Why do you want to stand there waste your time with it.

TAP RACK BANG is a commonly taught malfunction drill..."TRAIN THE WAY YOU FIGHT. FIGHT THE WAY YOU TRAIN." Here's the problem--what you do in practice, you'll do under stress. I've practiced enough that when I hit a dud round, I pretty much go right to "TAP, RACK, and BANG" without thinking about it; clear the stoppage and move on with life. In a life or death situation, I am not going to stand there to figure out which option should i use: pulling the trigger again or tap rack and bang.

If you really think about it, trying a '2nd Strike' actually wastes precious time and could get you killed. Chances are if you get a bad primer, 2nd strike probably won't solve the issue, you'll still have to tap and rack and get back on target.

I will put my flame jacket on before the Sig people show up.

[DannyZRC]

just to make sure nobody misunderstands my position, I'm not advocating a 2nd strike as something to train for.

I think you should go straight to TRB.

I also think the chances are nonzero that you'll pull the trigger anyway before you get there, and that there is a nonzero chance that it will cause the gun to fire.

nonzero doesn't mean I think anyone should worry about it, it's more of a happy consequence of certain action types rather than something anybody should be shopping for.

there are many many factors much more important than whether or not the gun can restrike a primer (or an empty chamber, which is the more likely culprit of an FTF).

[zfields]

In before the Sig people show up and call me a Glock fanboy because I dont like the double strike capability.

I said it before and I will say it again.. Second strike capability in a semi is useless as a rock in a gun fight. In a defensive situation, standing there pulling the trigger again will get you killed. If I pull the trigger and all I hear is a click, I want that round out of my gun asap. If it doesn't go off the first time, I am getting it "THE HELL" out of my gun for a round that will. Why do you want to stand there waste your time with it.

TAP RACK BANG is a commonly taught malfunction drill..."TRAIN THE WAY YOU FIGHT. FIGHT THE WAY YOU TRAIN." Here's the problem--what you do in practice, you'll do under stress. I've practiced enough that when I hit a dud round, I pretty much go right to "TAP, RACK, and BANG" without thinking about it; clear the stoppage and move on with life. In a life or death situation, I am not going to stand there to figure out which option should i use: pulling the trigger again or tap rack and bang.

If you really think about it, trying a '2nd Strike' actually wastes precious time and could get you killed. Chances are if you get a bad primer, 2nd strike probably won't solve the issue, you'll still have to tap and rack and get back on target.

I will put my flame jacket on before the Sig people show up.

Big ole' +1 to that.....even if you are a Glock fanboi

[liberty_head]

Standing there pulling the trigger? Standing there trying to figure out what to do? While there are good arguments to be made, I don't think those are very realistic points.

Tap rack bang is smart practice, but just about everybody will probably pull the trigger a second time if it doesn't go bang in a gun fight. It's immediate reflex, not standing around. If your gun has second strike capability and does go bang on that immediate, second trigger pull, that's a good thing. If it doesn't then tap and rack. Thus, it's arguably beneficial. It also optional to use.

[sirgiles]

it seems that this double strike system was advocated by ernie langdon during his ipsc days while using a beretta. i still have not come across any article using this in real life scenarios.
its become second nature for me even at the range to just do a TRB whenever the dreaded "click" happens (i reload. sometimes i use hard primers and experiment with lightened firing spring pins) and never actually double strike even if i have a pistol that has that feature.

[STAGE 2]

Second strike capability in a semi is useless as a rock in a gun fight.

And as in the other thread, you're still wrong because its almost a 100% certainty that while under the stress of a defensive shooting, you're going to pull the trigger twice anyways. So the question isn't whether there is a utility to having second strike capability, the question is whether you want the hammer to strike the firing pin a second time when you pull the trigger after a dud, or whether you are just going to pull against an already depressed trigger.

[RollingCode3]

"everybody will probably pull the trigger a second time if it doesn't go bang in a gun fight."

Everybody? Who? Not me or anyone I know.

" its almost a 100% certainty that while under the stress of a defensive shooting, you're going to pull the trigger twice anyways. "

100%? Do you have any data or report tonback that up?

I dont know about you but I always carry snap caps and dummy rounds with me to the shooting range. I like to mix snap caps and live rounds so I can practice the TRB drill.

[Heiko]

"everybody will probably pull the trigger a second time if it doesn't go bang in a gun fight."

Everybody? Who? Not me or anyone I know.

" its almost a 100% certainty that while under the stress of a defensive shooting, you're going to pull the trigger twice anyways. "

100%? Do you have any data or report tonback that up?

I dont know about you but I always carry snap caps and dummy rounds with me to the shooting range. I like to mix snap caps and live rounds so I can practice the TRB drill.

Agree!

I can't imagine anyone advocating for a second trigger pull. That is just plain dumb. Anyone who does any amount of training with a semi-auto handgun will NOT pull the trigger again. That's for idiots on TV and movies who repeatedly pull-click, then throw the gun down in disgust.

Great idea on the snap caps. I need to do that. I don't think I will do that at a public range but at the private range I will definitely incorporate that into my practice. Gotta get a buddy to load the magazine though so I don't cheat.

[STAGE 2]

100%? Do you have any data or report to back that up?

I dont know about you but I always carry snap caps and dummy rounds with me to the shooting range. I like to mix snap caps and live rounds so I can practice the TRB drill.

The range isn't real life. No matter what some instructor says, or how "real" the training will be, you'll never be able to duplicate the adrenaline, the stress, and the sensation of having to defend yourself from a real threat. As a result, for the same reason that people in defensive shootings often don't hear the sound of their weapon, they also don't instantly recognize that the hammer has fallen on a dud round. Its not a training issue, its a motor function/sensory issue.

[liberty_head]

I can't imagine anyone advocating for a second trigger pull. That is just plain dumb.

I wasn't advocating anything. I was defending an option (which, btw, I believe the US Military requires of general service pistols though I may be mistaken) against a dumb argument (that anyone is going to stand there like an idiot pulling the trigger again and again).

Anyone who does any amount of training with a semi-auto handgun will NOT pull the trigger again.

Now, "That is just plain dumb." That's just not true. Do a little homework on the innerwebs.