Does "safe handgun list" requirement (still) apply to frames?

[D.R.E.]

Apologies if this is a dead horse, but:

Assuming I was going to build a 1911: If I buy a 1911 frame, I know it has to get shipped to an FFL, but does the safe handgun list restriction apply to it in some way?

Or can I buy any frame I want and then assemble the pieces w/o interference?

I know two years ago the roster requirement was in place, but don't know if there have been any updates.

[boink]

It's interesting. Frame-only guns are automatically not on the roster, even if the full gun is normally on the roster.

So unless it is via PPT, there is no purchasing of frame only. I just recently created a thread on this and will find it for you.

EDIT: here is that thread, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=343477

most important part:

So I spoke with my FFL:

"Since it is a frame only, it is not on the roster and cannot be transfered to you by a CA dealer from out of state. What some people do is send the seller a complete slide, then have him ship you back a complete rostered handgun. This is perfectly legal"

Shoot. I have a complete upper, I'll ship it to him.

EDIT 2: though he said "from out of state", that would be any sort of transfer besides PPT is a no-go.

[D.R.E.]

Wow, even worse than I thought if your FFL is correct.

If I'm reading your post right, shipping a complete slide would not work if the frame wasn't on the list in the first place?

[Rekrab]

That is correct. Unless the gun is on the roster or shipped as a dimensionally compliant single shot handgun it cannot be DROSed to you.

[D.R.E.]

The firearm is the frame and vise versa. The slide is a component, and it's perfectly legal to buy slides direct.

Sorry, not what a I meant. I should have written that shipping the seller the slide to put on the frame and getting the "complete" handgun back only works if the frame was on the list in the first place.

Doesn't really matter in any case, since I wanted to get partially machined frames.

[boink]

Doesn't really matter in any case, since I wanted to get partially machined frames.

I think that's something completely different. I know there are 80% AR Lowers that don't require an FFL. Look into laws on "80% lowers".

EDIT: maybe this helps, though it is not California specific. You'll probably find more info around this forum or in the smithing section.

http://www.acmearms.com/80percentfaq.php

[D.R.E.]

I think that's something completely different. I know there are 80% AR Lowers that don't require an FFL. Look into laws on "80% lowers".

EDIT: maybe this helps, though it is not California specific. You'll probably find more info around this forum or in the smithing section.
http://www.acmearms.com/80percentfaq.php

Oh, cool!

I should have asked the right question Thanks for answering what I meant to ask.

I'm a bit puzzled by the DOJ letter they have --- does an 80% 1911 frame have to go to an FFL in CA or not?

[jtmkinsd]

Oh, cool!

I should have asked the right question Thanks for answering what I meant to ask.

I'm a bit puzzled by the DOJ letter they have --- does an 80% 1911 frame have to go to an FFL in CA or not?

An 80% by definition is not a firearm...you can have it mailed to your door.

Be advised: YOU must finish the frame. You can't just take it to a gunsmith and have them finish it for you (they will tell you no if you ask). This includes someone setting up a CNC or other mill for you and you just push the button...you have to do the work.

[D.R.E.]

An 80% by definition is not a firearm...you can have it mailed to your door.

Be advised: YOU must finish the frame. You can't just take it to a gunsmith and have them finish it for you (they will tell you no if you ask). This includes someone setting up a CNC or other mill for you and you just push the button...you have to do the work.

That would be perfect. I don't like paying other people to work on my guns. (Other than having them show me how to do certain things correctly.)

Unfortunately google is turning up some old 2004 posts by bweise that seem to indicate this machining a 1911 from a 80% frame is illegal. Have things changed?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-21511.html

When you build up 80% frames (i.e, frames that were unserialized and are just non-firearm 'hunks of metal' when you acquired them) and then mill out the requisite holes, grooves etc and get it into a firearm 'frame', you could be considered manufacturing an unsafe gun.

This is different than having a serialize 1911 frame you had on hand before 2001, or got via legit F2F PPT, etc. and then adding slide, rail, etc. is just changing the form of a legitimately-owned unsafe gun.

You can't read the law always for exact detail. When there are small perceived loopholes, courts do hold in high regard the sense/intent of the legislation, which was - except for expressly outlined exemptions (personal handgun importers, face to face PPTs, one-offs for testing & evaluation, LEO/gov't items) - the goal to ban further introduction of unsafe handguns in CA. This is where judges end up making law when things are murky in written law + administrative regulations.

Also, remember that you are unlikely to ever be prosecuted by Cal DOJ. Most prosecutions of average schmucks like us are done by one of the 58 local county DAs. Their opinions do sometimes differ w/Cal DOJ: in fact Cal DOJ Firearms has been sued - and lost! - several times on gun issues. Generally their opinion/administration of technical standards and administrative law is held as reference but there are exceptions.

But when I hear Tim Riegert, asst head of Cal DOJ Firearms Div (a very bright well-spoken guy, and a lawyer), being directly asked about homebuilt handguns and he says it's banned, quotes 12125, mentioned issues of "legislative intent" to ban 'unsafe' guns, I'm gonna listen to him instead of a bunch armchair lawyers (myself included). Hearing it from the "horse's mouth" does count for something.

[D.R.E.]

Actually, the contents of this thread drifted enough that I'm going to re-ask legality of machining under a more appropriate title: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=362668

[Munk]

That would be perfect. I don't like paying other people to work on my guns. (Other than having them show me how to do certain things correctly.)

Unfortunately google is turning up some old 2004 posts by bweise that seem to indicate this machining a 1911 from a 80% frame is illegal. Have things changed?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/a...p/t-21511.html

I believe some things have changed with the advent of Off-List lowers, the popularity of build parties, and of 80% lowers.

The issues come from the roster itself. MFGing an off-roster item. (what he means by "unsafe".

[tzahoy]

Come on DRE, you've got a decent machine shop, buy an 80% 1911 frame and finish it your self!