Does ammo quality make a huge difference in accuracy?

[iareConfusE]

I posted this question in another thread, although worded in the form of a report. Thread wasn't receiving much attention so I figured I'd just create a separate one. Here's what I wrote:

With my M&P9, I seem to have problems with the point of impact. All of my shots are low and to the left with cheap 115gr FMJ ammo, however today, after shooting some 147gr Winchester Ranger HP for function test as a HD round, I found that I was shooting dead center, point of aim.

Here is an example of this:


The group in the center (clean holes), right above the bottom target is where I shot at with the Winchester Ranger HP ammo. I guess I aimed a bit high, but that was where the gun was pointed. If you look at the bullet holes above and to the left of that group (uglier holes), that's my group with Blazer aluminum 115gr FMJ. This was on the same day, and the groups were shot within minutes of each other. I'm not really sure what's going on. Perhaps the lighter bullet has a bit more felt recoil and I might be flinching when I'm shooting that, thus moving the group to the lower left, as opposed to the heavier bullet which seemed to have less felt recoil.

So, does a more expensive round equal greater accuracy? I can't tell why I would be shooting well with the expensive ammo but crappy with the cheap practice ammo.

[Casual_Shooter]

When I was shooting low- left, a range employee showed me that I was anticipating the recoil and "pushing" the gun.

Perhaps this is what you're doing but with the more powerful ammo, you aren't having as much of an effect as with the lower powered ammo.

[PsychGuy274]

Dropping down is due to anticipating recoil and going left is due to 'pushing' the gun to the left while squeezing the trigger.

It seems that you did fine with the other ammo though, so maybe the ammo that was off is more 'snappy' and you're not used to it so you revert back to using poor technique because it's not something you're used to.

Hope this helps

[Gryff]

Yes, quality ammo may provide better accuracy than cheaper stuff. Usually, this isn't too noticeable in handguns at standard indoor range differences, though.

The thing that comes to mind regarding your picture is that the difference may have more to do with the different loadings between the two ammos. Traditionally 147gr. 9mm has a lower recoil impulse than 115gr., which may explain why your group opened up.

[CSACANNONEER]

You guys have it bass ackwards. He is not having any trouble with the hotter ammo. It's the cheaper ammo that he can't shoot well.

To answer the question, I don't care how good of a shooter you are or how good your gun is, you won't be able to shoot well without good quality ammo. The ammo is probably more important than the firearm.

[Shenaniguns]

I posted this question in another thread, although worded in the form of a report. Thread wasn't receiving much attention so I figured I'd just create a separate one. Here's what I wrote:

With my M&P9, I seem to have problems with the point of impact. All of my shots are low and to the left with cheap 115gr FMJ ammo, however today, after shooting some 147gr Winchester Ranger HP for function test as a HD round, I found that I was shooting dead center, point of aim.

Here is an example of this:


The group in the center (clean holes), right above the bottom target is where I shot at with the Winchester Ranger HP ammo. I guess I aimed a bit high, but that was where the gun was pointed. If you look at the bullet holes above and to the left of that group (uglier holes), that's my group with Blazer aluminum 115gr FMJ. This was on the same day, and the groups were shot within minutes of each other. I'm not really sure what's going on. Perhaps the lighter bullet has a bit more felt recoil and I might be flinching when I'm shooting that, thus moving the group to the lower left, as opposed to the heavier bullet which seemed to have less felt recoil.

So, does a more expensive round equal greater accuracy? I can't tell why I would be shooting well with the expensive ammo but crappy with the cheap practice ammo.

Yes it can, but it's not always the case. IMO 124gr Ranger-T +P groups much better for me at 25 yards in my M&P9 compared to WWB, RWS, PDX 147gr or Lawmen. The different bullet weights and velocity also has an impact on how high or low POI is.

[iareConfusE]

You guys have it bass ackwards. He is not having any trouble with the hotter ammo. It's the cheaper ammo that he can't shoot well.

To answer the question, I don't care how good of a shooter you are or how good your gun is, you won't be able to shoot well without good quality ammo. The ammo is probably more important than the firearm.

Is blazer aluminum really that crap quality though? I've seen other people shoot just fine with this ammo. For that matter, I've asked some of the RSOs at the range to shoot my gun with my ammo, and they actually grouped pretty well at the same range. I'm thinking it might just be developing a flinch everytime I shoot the lighter ammo that has more felt recoil, but I wanted some more opinions from you guys.

[Gryff]

You guys have it bass ackwards. He is not having any trouble with the hotter ammo.

Uh, yeah, he is.

Winchester Ranger 147gr. 9mm has a muzzle velocity spec of 990fps.

CCI Blazer 115gr. 9mm has a muzzle velocity spec of 1145fps.

He's more accurate with the slower stuff.

[Shenaniguns]

Is blazer aluminum really that crap quality though? I've seen other people shoot just fine with this ammo. For that matter, I've asked some of the RSOs at the range to shoot my gun with my ammo, and they actually grouped pretty well at the same range. I'm thinking it might just be developing a flinch everytime I shoot the lighter ammo that has more felt recoil, but I wanted some more opinions from you guys.

Even when you get more consistent, high quality Ranger and HST will still group better than the practice type ammo. There is stricter QC with most 'duty' type ammo that you don't get with practice ammo.

[Casual_Shooter]

You guys have it bass ackwards. He is not having any trouble with the hotter ammo. It's the cheaper ammo that he can't shoot well.

That was my point. Wouldn't the hotter ammo cause more of recoil? If the OP was pushing/ anticipating, a hotter load would negate some of that push therefore resulting in a more accurate shot.

[Shenaniguns]

BTW, this is the type of accuracy an M&P is capable of with a stock barrel (benched though I'm sure his standing groups only add an inch or so):

http://pistol-training.com/archives/1252

M&P9: Post-Test Accuracy Check #2checked the accuracy The results were nothing short of spectacular.

• week 1: 1.46″
• week 6: 2.05″
• week 10: 1.69″
• week 17: 1.99″
• week 22: 1.92″ (after thorough cleaning)
• Post-Test Accuracy Check #1: 2.88″ (dirty gun)
• Post-Test Accuracy Check #2: 1.83″ (clean gun)

PLEASE NOTE: Neither pistol-training.com nor Smith & Wesson recommend or condone firing a pistol with known broken components. This test was performed by a shooter with extensive training and experience in firearms test protocols. Do not try this at home. If you detect a broken component in any firearm, clear the gun and return it to the manufacturer for service at once.
Train hard & stay safe! ToddG

[Shenaniguns]

Actually this is more relevant:

M&P Monday: The first week1,000 rounds As we reported last week, with the help of the folks at Smith & Wesson

• Federal 124gr +p HST: 1.46″
• CCI Blazer 115gr FMJ: 3.52″

Results are based on an average of five 5-shot groups from a sandbag rest at 25yd.
Check back next week for our next set of results.
Train hard & stay safe! ToddG

[iareConfusE]

Actually this is more relevant:

M&P Monday: The first week1,000 rounds As we reported last week, with the help of the folks at Smith & Wesson

• Federal 124gr +p HST: 1.46″
• CCI Blazer 115gr FMJ: 3.52″

Results are based on an average of five 5-shot groups from a sandbag rest at 25yd.
Check back next week for our next set of results.
Train hard & stay safe! ToddG

So, even pros have wider groups with the cheaper practice ammo. However it still doesn't really solve the problem of why I'm shooting point of aim with the expensive JHP, and low and left with the cheap practice FMJ. My groups with the cheap ammo did open up quite a bit, but that isn't really what concerns me. It's just the placement of the majority of the group that is bothering me. I've tried to consciously correct myself when I'm shooting the cheap stuff, but I always get the same result.

[Shenaniguns]

So, even pros have wider groups with the cheaper practice ammo. However it still doesn't really solve the problem of why I'm shooting point of aim with the expensive JHP, and low and left with the cheap practice FMJ. My groups with the cheap ammo did open up quite a bit, but that isn't really what concerns me. It's just the placement of the majority of the group that is bothering me. I've tried to consciously correct myself when I'm shooting the cheap stuff, but I always get the same result.

I was just helping with the ammo part lol Why you're shooting the cheap stuff low left sounds like you should have someone qualified diagnose you in person.

[9mmepiphany]

It's just the placement of the majority of the group that is bothering me

I'm sure it is a combination of a couple of things, but it is not uncommon for the lighter/faster bullet to hit to a lower POI. I'll even bet you're gripping a bit tighter when you shoot the 115gr rounds.

The next point could be grip or sight alignment related.
Are you aligning the dots when aiming?
Are you locking down your thumbs?