586's & 686'sin Sacto

[Roboshred]

The Old Sacramento Armoury had about ten of these pistols( used)
in stock today with prices in the low $300's. I wanted to pass
on the info. for those of you that are interested.

[bwiese]

If they are the 686-6 or the 586-7 variants, they are approved for sale in CA.

But given that 586 has only been newly reintroduced and these are used guns(prob police trade-ins??), I really suspect some of these revolvers are not able to legally be sold in CA to Californians (other than via PPT transfers, not applicable here).

[Roboshred]

They are all PPT's!!!!

They are part of a collection for sale per the owner. So those that are interested can have at it.

[bwiese]

I didn't think of that.

Consigment sales are apparently legal since they're a PPT with the gun stored in the dealer's showcase for viewing.

Guess this just means the poor seller has to come to the gunshop for each of his guns being sold...

[slocum]

I just spoke to them.

The guns are from SF Institutional PD (looney bin cops). The 686's are 6 rounders and are described as appearing to have hardly ever been fired. They are asking $349 each. They have five 686s remaining. Guns ARE legal for sale in CA.

Hope this helps.

s

[chickenfried]

Thanks for the info Slocum. Any word on the 586's?

[SpeedTribe]

I checked them out today and paid for one of the 686-6 with pachmeyer grips. They are in really good shape and one of the 586s is actually stamped with "S.F.I.P.D." These are a little bit older so the firing pin is on the hammer and there is no integral lock.

[bwiese]

I checked them out today and paid for one of the 686-6 with pachmeyer grips. They are in really good shape and one of the 586s is actually stamped with "S.F.I.P.D." These are a little bit older so the firing pin is on the hammer and there is no integral lock.

Well then these 586s are not 586-7s and are thus not legal for FFL sale unless it's a PPT or consignment sale.

[chickenfried]

Awww I thought the name sounded familiar. This is the place with the owner that doesn't want to have pro-rkba flyers displayed.

[bwiese]

Treelogger...

S&W 586 and 686 guns are L-frame guns with full underlug barrels. These barrels are traditional and do not use the new 'barrel insert into tube frame' that some of S&Ws new guns use.

Common barrel lengths are 4" and 6". There are a few 5" out there IIRC, as well as some 8+". Also there are some 2.5" snubby and 3" guns out there too.
If not the whole 586/686 line, at least some flavors are known as "Distinguished Combat Magnum".

The 686 today is available in 6 or 7 rounds (the latter known as 686 Plus). I think the recent 586 I saw had 7 rounds as well. Older 586s are 6 shooters. For awhile S&W was doing most all guns stainless steel so 586 disappared for quite some time - it's only been re-released in the last, say, year.

The 586/686 were beefier and improved upon the slightly smaller K-frame model 19 (steel/blue) and model 66 (stainless) guns. These guns have partial underlugs. Model 65 (stainless) and dunno-knows-what (blued) guns are similar but have fixed sight/grooved topstrap instead of adjustable sights.

I think the new 619/620 as well as the new model 19/20 (and as well as the blued steel frame w/titanium cylinder model 520) are still K-frames that have been yet again reinforced. (There is a chance these are L frames but I doubt it, no reason for their existence then.) These guns have partial lug barrels and they possibly appear (from their muzzle) to have a barrel tube with barrel insert, not sure...)

If it's a used institutional 586 it is likely NOT on CA approved gun list. The dealer can't really sell these to you since DOJ approved handgun list goes down to the sub-model/version# level. There's a chance the 686s are legal. If off-list these guns must be transferred to you via PPT (i.e., the guns are on 'consignment' and you'll have to coordinate w/actual seller, who is not the gun shop...

[Roboshred]

my understanding is

A Cal. dealer can buy guns not on the list as a PPT then turn around and sell
them as a PPT in Ca.. They aren't limited to their purchase volume because they are dealers. They do however have to go through the entire PPT process if they intend to resale the firearm again in Ca.. Most dealers opt out of this and sell them via the internet. Thats what my buddie at DOJ stated and that's what Iv'e seen at several dealers. The state just wants the firearms registered and the revenue from it. Anyone else with a different take? RB

[bwiese]

A Cal. dealer can buy guns not on the list as a PPT then turn around and sell them as a PPT in Ca.. They aren't limited to their purchase volume because they are dealers.

One gun a month does not apply to PPTs.

A CA dealer does not "sell guns" as PPTs. The private seller is selling, and the dealer is merely providing a service and collects a fee or some dollar amount above which the orig seller is willing to accept.

If a CA dealer buys off-list guns from a seller and the seller relinquishes all interest in these guns (i.e., the dealer owns these guns as part of his inventory) then these guns cannot be sold to Californians. I don't think CA FFLs can sell their own non-approved guns as PPTs to customers otherwise that would conflict with safe gun law and make it moot...

[bwiese]

Bill: Thanks for all the advice.

Oops, that kills it for me. I always feel (for my own taste) that the 686 with full underlug is too heavy; I have shot an old 19, and like it much better weight- or balance-wise.

Well the new 619/20s have heavier 'bull' barrels it appears, though no underlug.

Some weight at end of bbl is good to avoid muzzle flip for rapid recovery into your 2nd-shot... Yes, K frames are a tad lighter than L frames regardless of lug. Lighter the gun the sharper the recoil when you're shooting hotter 357s, too...

As a customer, that only matters a little bit, right?
If it is a consignment gun, I think I have to make an appointment with the non-PPT seller to meet at the gunstore for doing the FTF paperwork; then come back 10 days later for the pickup. If the gun is being sold directly by the dealer, I can do the DROS-paperwork any time without appointment.

The issue here *may* be that the dealer is trying to sell some unapproved guns (we have relatively little information to go on). But the fact that these seem to be former institutional guns (?????) means that they are probably a tad older than when the approved handgun list was created. Especially since this includes 586s: these have been out of production for some time, and only very recently have gone into production again - I find it very very very unlikely that an institutional agency would get brand new 586s 8-11 months ago. Thus these could well NOT be the 686-6 and 586-7 CA approved versions.

My point is that if these are unapproved guns, the dealer can't sell them to you except via consignment/PPT situation. But if they're already in his inventory and are not _specifically_ 586-7 and 686-6 versions, they're not sellable in CA and are not PPT-able. Dealer may be trying to ride on the fact that there is a 586 and 686 (though not those sub-variants) on the list and pull a fast one.

A year ago I had to return a gun that had fallen off the list right before it was sold to me. Just trying to save you that grief...

So a consignment sale makes for maybe one extra trip to the gun store, to meet the seller in person. Usually this would not be a big deal; with the dealer 3 hours away by car, its a slightly bigger deal. Did I understand this aspect of a consigment sale right?

Yes, for the 686s.

Whoa, I now see a previous post mentioned 686-6 - which is indeed CA legal. So consignment/PPT issuse for these are moot.

Dunno about the 586s. But institutional 586s sound really funky (i.e., older).
There's no way the loony bin cops will show up for a consignment sale - unless they sold to another guy before 2001, who in turn sold to the shop, and would be present during consignment sale.

P.S. Just saw this quote:
{snip}
Your humor is so dry, it is actually hard to notice. The whole "safe gun" law is moot to begin with - its real purpose is not so much gun safety, but getting fewer guns out on the streets, by making them more expensive and more rare. Conflicting with it would be a good thing, if it weren't illegal.

My statement was actually said in seriousness, dealing with legal intent/effects of law. But I see the humor in it too...

[D1911]

I picked up one of the 686s when they first came in. It's a 6" barrel (all were, including the 586s I saw), and doesn't appear to have been shot very much at all. My gunsmith checked it out and verified this, said the gun was nice and tight. As far as the purchase goes, not sure what the gun's status was. I went in, picked the one I wanted, and did the DROS paperwork. Didn't have to worry about the seller being there so they must be consignment guns. Price was $349 to $425 for the 686s. Not sure about the 586s.

[kantstudien]

Turners does consignment sales as well, and it strikes me a odd. Why not make it a PPT sale and then be able to sell multiple handguns to the same customer? And how are they able to sell off-list as consignment if they are not PPT? SB15? SB23? BS101?