Red dot sight - accuracy improvement?

[static2126]

Top Pic is a G19 with 509T at slightly above hat qual time standards @25 yards (would have passed accuracy but failed time)

Bottom pic is G19 with .22 conversion kit and swampfox red dot. Multiple shooting strings. All of these would have passed hat qual standard based on time. All passed based on accuracy except first round of 88.

Red dot makes shooting at distance stupid easy if you can shoot. But it's not magic. It won't fix trigger pull, grip, or anticipation issues.

Initial presentation from holster/low ready needs to be worked on till it's as fast as irons. That said once you dot there's no going back. I can hit out to 150 yards on an IPSC sized steel target with a dotted G19. Cannot do that without a dot.

https://imgur.com/a/2knFA1Q

[IVC]

Short answer: Red dot will not improve your accuracy. At least not directly.

Long answer: You accuracy is 80%+ in trigger control. Everything else is but minor details. A refind trigger finger is what makes you accurate. Red dot doesn't affect trigger control, so it won't make you a better shooter by itself.

However (and this is a big "however"), red dot WILL make you see the movement of the gun as you try to keep it on target while operating the trigger MUCH better than the iron sights. So, red dot will help you *refine* your shooting technique, which will make you a better shooter in the long run. Red dot will also make you immediately know if your presentation from holster or from movement is not good (as was pointed out above by another poster), which will force you to clean it up.

For long shots, red dot will help AFTER you have refined your trigger control and grip to the point where your limiting factor is the aim. This is pretty advanced stage, where you can keep the gun very steady on the target as you pull the trigger, but the target is so small that you can't judge how well it's centered inside the much larger front sight, or how well the front sight is centered in the rear sight (equal heigh, equal light).

Indirectly, red dot WILL help. A lot. But the help is through cleaning up your technique and forcing you to build the correct skill set. The *direct* benefit of the red dot will be connected to aiming (very accurate distant shots, shot calling on very fast shots, etc.), but only AFTER you get to the point where aiming is your limitation and not the rest of the technique.

[static2126]

Short answer: Red dot will not improve your accuracy. At least not directly.

Long answer: You accuracy is 80%+ in trigger control. Everything else is but minor details. A refind trigger finger is what makes you accurate. Red dot doesn't affect trigger control, so it won't make you a better shooter by itself.

However (and this is a big "however"), red dot WILL make you see the movement of the gun as you try to keep it on target while operating the trigger MUCH better than the iron sights. So, red dot will help you *refine* your shooting technique, which will make you a better shooter in the long run. Red dot will also make you immediately know if your presentation from holster or from movement is not good (as was pointed out above by another poster), which will force you to clean it up.

For long shots, red dot will help AFTER you have refined your trigger control and grip to the point where your limiting factor is the aim. This is pretty advanced stage, where you can keep the gun very steady on the target as you pull the trigger, but the target is so small that you can't judge how well it's centered inside the much larger front sight, or how well the front sight is centered in the rear sight (equal heigh, equal light).

Indirectly, red dot WILL help. A lot. But the help is through cleaning up your technique and forcing you to build the correct skill set. The *direct* benefit of the red dot will be connected to aiming (very accurate distant shots, shot calling on very fast shots, etc.), but only AFTER you get to the point where aiming is your limitation and not the rest of the technique.

This is very well said.

That said imo new shooters should learn off a dot

[IVC]

Another question - does having a red dot on your primary gun effect your ability to effectively shoot an iron sighted gun? Or, to put it another way, should a person convert all their guns to be the same (red dot) for consistency in training and performance.

Once you start working on your technique at a deeper level, you can say that sights are there to witness your shots, not directly for aiming. (This is not a beginner or even intermediate concept.)

When you line up the gun and fire, you are worried about knowing where the shot went (shot calling), not about lining up the sights perfectly. In a way, your technique and skill bring the sights to your eyes, but you use eyes to recognize the situation and decide on when the sights are settled enough, not for searching and aligning with the target. So, when you go back to irons, you'll notice that it's a bit more difficult to "register" the sight alignment which takes a bit extra time, but that your shooting overall is now much better because your gun shows up naturally correctly aligned, and you're spending time settling the sights, not aiming.

[Rcjackrabbit]

For consistency in training and performance, would you equip all your guns with red dots so that they have the same sighting system?

P.S. The primary purpose for my guns is home defense and CCW.

[IVC]

For consistency in training and performance, would you equip all your guns with red dots so that they have the same sighting system?

Not necessarily, but nothing wrong if you do (obviously).

Each gun is different and you will have to adjust to it if you want to go really fast. If you're talking about self defense at home, you won't notice different aiming systems as much. For carry, you'll find that the location and type of holster are much (and I mean "MUCH") bigger issue than the sights. Changing between "small of the back" and "appendix" will be way bigger change than anything you do with the sights.

Just make sure you practice from time to time with different guns and different sights. You'll see that as your presentation gets better, you'll be proficient with all of them pretty much automatically.

[static2126]

For consistency in training and performance, would you equip all your guns with red dots so that they have the same sighting system?

P.S. The primary purpose for my guns is home defense and CCW.

My opinion is worth what you paid but all of our carry/serious use guns are setup identically (G19 with 509T) or P365XL with 507k (What my wife carries)

I find this helps me personally. YMMV

However my wife and I do each have small guns that are not dotted (p365XL for her) and g43 for me. This is because for some of these tiny guns there's benefits for them being tiny. I do have a CR920 that has a dot currently I may or may not remove. With the dot I can make headshots at 30 yards with a G43 sized gun.

My EDC is a G19 w/ 509T 99% of the time

[static2126]

Not necessarily, but nothing wrong if you do (obviously).

Each gun is different and you will have to adjust to it if you want to go really fast. If you're talking about self defense at home, you won't notice different aiming systems as much. For carry, you'll find that the location and type of holster are much (and I mean "MUCH") bigger issue than the sights. Changing between "small of the back" and "appendix" will be way bigger change than anything you do with the sights.

Just make sure you practice from time to time with different guns and different sights. You'll see that as your presentation gets better, you'll be proficient with all of them pretty much automatically.

This is truth. Each gun is different. This is why we now only own G19s, G43/CR920, and P365 for handguns.

Spot on that carrying in different places is the biggest adjustment of all. Imo find a carry spot that works for you and keep it the same.

[hermosabeach]

I have 3 friends who are OK shooters

They were all frustrated when changing from iron to optics did not improve they shooting.

I think it is why so many folks have a 10x or 20x scope when shooting steel at 100


The dot does not change your fundamentals.

If you move the gun while shooting- scope- dot - laser can't help



I liked the RMR on my Glock up until the day it broke.

I am glad I took a 4 day class with the dot as it took longer than I thought to get use to the dot.


I would encourage you to find someone local to you who has a dot and head to the range with them.


Have you ever shot with a dot before? My eyes HATE the flickering of the eotech.

I'm fine with RMR and aimpoint

Some folks have an issue seeing dots. It's a biological thing.

Just like some see halos while driving at night.



So if possible, pay for their range trip and ammo and try out a dot.

[static2126]

I have 3 friends who are OK shooters

They were all frustrated when changing from iron to optics did not improve they shooting.

I think it is why so many folks have a 10x or 20x scope when shooting steel at 100

People do this?? Lol you would think you need 1x for shooting steel at 100....

[Rcjackrabbit]

Thanks. I usually carry my G22 or G27 appendix in a Tenicor Velo4 holster.

I just sent 4 of my Glocks to Battlewerx for milling. I pulled the trigger on four 508Ts also. I have 9 Glocks total. I may end up doing them all. I'm not sure yet.

I am fortunate. I belong to West End Gun club. I usually shoot 2-3 times a month. So, I will definitely put in the time to make this work. I am also the type of person that will dry fire for 30 minutes a day if that is what it takes to adjust to the new setup.

Thanks for all the replies.

[static2126]

Thanks. I usually carry my G22 or G27 appendix in a Tenicor Velo4 holster.

I just sent 4 of my Glocks to Battlewerx for milling. I pulled the trigger on four 508Ts also. I have 9 Glocks total. I may end up doing them all. I'm not sure yet.

I am fortunate. I belong to West End Gun club. I usually shoot 2-3 times a month. So, I will definitely put in the time to make this work. I am also the type of person that will dry fire for 30 minutes a day if that is what it takes to adjust to the new setup.

Thanks for all the replies.

Sounds like this will be a winner for you.

If you plan to carry consider a closed emitter. I hated cleaning my open emitters. The scoop acts as a giant lint trap lol

[rodralig]

Thanks. I usually carry my G22 or G27 appendix in a Tenicor Velo4 holster.

I just sent 4 of my Glocks to Battlewerx for milling. I pulled the trigger on four 508Ts also. I have 9 Glocks total. I may end up doing them all. I'm not sure yet.

I am fortunate. I belong to West End Gun club. I usually shoot 2-3 times a month. So, I will definitely put in the time to make this work. I am also the type of person that will dry fire for 30 minutes a day if that is what it takes to adjust to the new setup.

Thanks for all the replies.

Since many had already replied back to your question, I won’t bother with mine.

However, what I would like to add is a suggestion to take a “red dot specific” class. Based on what you just said that you’d be willing to dry practice 30-min/day to get this going, I would want you to make effective use of that time by practicing what may/could be optimal for red dots.

IMO, I find that the Modern Samurai Project (MSP) curriculum provides this… When I took their class, I was about 1~2 years already into RDS, and would have wished that I took the class sooner. It would have made for a more effective ramp up and development.

I see that you are within the WEGC locality - since MSP class is usually booked months away, take a 1-day class from My Own Defender. He is an MSP-certified instructor that teaches the exact curriculum in Scott’s (MSP) class. If I would recall, the MSP-certified instructors here in SoCal are top M/A-class Carry Optics shooters, too, in USPSA. And in spite of the “spray and pray” perception of USPSA, it is actually “speed under acceptable accuracy,” which is a good basis/foundation for defense/tactical.

Here is a snippet that can be found in YouTube of an MSP class. This one, in particular, is about finding the dot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eMQyTmH9ho

Cheers,

_

[Rcjackrabbit]

Awesome! Thanks Rod.

[eaglemike]

Pretty much what Rod said. My experience has been that a red dot sight is a great training tool, making it much easier to see how much they are actually moving. So much easier for seeing follow though.
Well said!