9mm ammo choice...

[OCEquestrian]

What would you carry ammo wise for a CCW with a +/- 4 inch barrel? Which do you feel is a better self defense round? The velocity of the 124 +P or the penetration of the 147?

124 gr +P or 147 gr. Assume the bullet design for both choices is the same, ie...HST/Ranger-T etc...

[morrcarr67]

What would you carry ammo wise for a CCW with a +/- 4 inch barrel?

124 gr +P or 147 gr. Assume the bullet design for both choices is the same, ie...HST/Ranger-T etc...

Which ever one performed the best in MY pistol.

You need to figure out which performs best in YOUR pistol.

[NorCalRefuge]

Also consider what size gun yours is. I, personally, would not want to shoot +P's out of a sub compact, or even a compact.

But as morrcarr67 said, it depends what your gun likes and what you can shoot well.

Don't just buy a defensive round and call it good. They're expensive, but you need to plan on putting a box or two through your gun of choice to be confident it will cycle properly, eject, etc, and you can also place shots on target, including follow-ups with enough accuracy to matter.

[OCEquestrian]

Also consider what size gun yours is. I, personally, would not want to shoot +P's out of a sub compact, or even a compact.

But as morrcarr67 said, it depends what your gun likes and what you can shoot well.

Don't just buy a defensive round and call it good. They're expensive, but you need to plan on putting a box or two through your gun of choice to be confident it will cycle properly, eject, etc, and you can also place shots on target, including follow-ups with enough accuracy to matter.

The possible firearm choices eat everything they are fed...HKVP9/ SiG P320C / G19

[NorCalRefuge]

The possible firearm choices eat everything they are fed...HKVP9/ SiG P320C / G19

You still need to prove that with defensive ammo.

If you're gonna trust you life to it... you need to know it will go bang every single time (or as close to that as humanly, and financially possible).

Do not assume it will work because it hasn't been an issue before with other brands or bullet types.

Every hallow point brand/type is a little different... you might just have found the one type that doesn't feed well. You never know until you try it out. You also need to know what it feels like to shoot. You may indeed find out +P's are ridiculous for you to control... or not. Again, you won't know until you try it out.

Put 1-2 boxes through it. Zero malfunctions - probably good to go.

[DaveInOroValley]

I use Winchester USA Ready 124gr. in my Shield Plus Performance. A bit pricey but shoots great and not too snappy with the ported barrel.

[NorCalRefuge]

I personally run with 147gr HST's in my 9mm carry guns. I've put plenty through each barrel and have confirmed they run flawlessly so far. I can control the recoil well enough, even one handed - even weak handed, and place rounds where intended. G2G.

My only problem now is keeping them stock piled. I ran a little thin before COVID hit and now regret shooting some of them, as they've become rather difficult to find around here.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Whatever I decide to use I will make sure it cycles/fires a few mags of it just make sure. JHP’s can have feeding/cycling issues in some handguns. I’ve personally never had that issue with any of my handguns having any issues, but the only JHPs I’ve run through all of them were either Speer Gold Dots or Federal HST 147gr. I personally would prefer 124gr HST. Lighter bullet means higher velocity which can mean more expansion of the projectile, but it wasnt available at the time, and I got a great deal on several hundred rounds of the 147gr. HST.

Honestly, as long as it cycles through your firearms with out any issues you're GTG.

[norcalAF]

10MM of course!

[DrewTheBrave]

Which ever one performed the best in MY pistol.

You need to figure out which performs best in YOUR pistol.

This.

[SharedShots]

Observation:

When you read the articles about shootings anyone else notice that very few people shot with handguns are stopped when they are shot? Notice how it's usual that the person shot is found somewhere else and often quite a distance away as in the hospital, in a car some distance away and so forth?

There are as many reasons for that as there are people being shot but one thing is for sure, almost all of the people shot are NOT incapacitated at the time they are shot, they have the energy left to escape and retreat. That also means had they chosen to shoot back if they had a gun they could have done that too.

There is an argument that since the person shot retreated abandoned the assault that everything worked out but that isn't really true, they were not incapacitated but rather made a choice to leave and those are not the same things.

You can be sure that is something like HSTs were doing such a great job that beyond marketing statements that are rather general you'd be able to find information in far greater detail saying how much better they are than anything else.

Its something that should come up anytime someone says this or that ammo is better or you need this or that much expansion/penetration/ etc, where is the proof when most of those shot aren't really being stopped by incapacitation again, given that not all impacts would be an immediate incapacitating wound. There isn't enough information to prove any of the claims and notice that the same very few shootings are always used to back up claims about that is and isn't effective? Like Miami - used to change standards even though one of those shot had a non-survivable wound but continued to fight.

[L84CABO]

I run Federal HST's. And I'm honestly not very picky between the 124 gr (regulars, not +P) or 147 gr. I'll go with whatever is available and/or whichever is cheaper. YMMV.

[NorCalRefuge]

Observation:

When you read the articles about shootings anyone else notice that very few people shot with handguns are stopped when they are shot? Notice how it's usual that the person shot is found somewhere else and often quite a distance away as in the hospital, in a car some distance away and so forth?

There are as many reasons for that as there are people being shot but one thing is for sure, almost all of the people shot are NOT incapacitated at the time they are shot, they have the energy left to escape and retreat. That also means had they chosen to shoot back if they had a gun they could have done that too.

There is an argument that since the person shot retreated abandoned the assault that everything worked out but that isn't really true, they were not incapacitated but rather made a choice to leave and those are not the same things.

You can be sure that is something like HSTs were doing such a great job that beyond marketing statements that are rather general you'd be able to find information in far greater detail saying how much better they are than anything else.

Its something that should come up anytime someone says this or that ammo is better or you need this or that much expansion/penetration/ etc, where is the proof when most of those shot aren't really being stopped by incapacitation again, given that not all impacts would be an immediate incapacitating wound. There isn't enough information to prove any of the claims and notice that the same very few shootings are always used to back up claims about that is and isn't effective? Like Miami - used to change standards even though one of those shot had a non-survivable wound but continued to fight.

Well, an expanding round does two things:

1) Dumps all energy into the target, preventing over penetration and helping create a larger temporary and permanent wound cavity (kinetic energy transfer into soft, uncompressible water-based tissue, causing tearing and ripping, along with the projectile literally cutting a path in the tissue, again causing tearing and ripping).

2) The expansion area rips and tears soft tissue as it passes through the target, creating a larger permanent wound cavity.

Neither one is going to incapacitate with one shot. Sometimes even a dozen shots... you need to hit something critical for that, such as a pelvic bone (to immobilize), heart, brain area, etc. You can live for a while with an obliterated kidney, for example... long enough to stay in the fight or get away, perhaps.

The permanent wound cavity will eventually cause bleed out if not treated (if treatable...). Even that depends on where the shot landed... in the chest - you betcha bleed out or drowning will happen eventually... in the buttox? Maybe not so much...

The reasons we use expanding ammo instead of FMJ is:

1) Prevent over penetration to protect against collateral damage.

2) Increase surface area of the projectile to increase chances of striking something critical, leading to a faster incapacitation of the target. The increased surface area also induces more tumbling within the soft tissue, creating a larger permanent wound cavity as the projectile literally cuts a path through the target.

So no, there is no magic one-shot-stop-em bullet out there. Unless you can headshot every time (not gonna happen) - and even then, it still matters where in the head the shot landed!

For these reasons, we pick a round with consistent performance (out of the muzzle, and handling such as ejection, feeding, etc), and a round with as large of expansion as possible.

Today, HST offers all of this better than any other round. It's been tested over and over, you can do a quick google or youtube search for HST comparisons to see people measure multiple brands and models of bullets with calipers and see for yourself the expansion.

When something else comes along and dethrones HST, I'll jump on board. I'm not a brand loyalist with ammo by any means, just want the best.

In most (all) defensive shooting courses, you are instructed to continue firing into the target until there is no more threat - this is for a very good reason, as you pointed out one shot rarely if ever incapacitates or removes a determined threat from the fight.

For what it's worth - nobody likes being shot with anything. The stories you hear about people fleeing and making it to the hospital or being arrested at home usually ran from the fight the moment shots started (smart in my book...). This is the "F.I.B.S" factor, as so aptly named by John Correia of Active Self Protection - "F**k! I've Been Shot!"

[billped]

^^^ great post.

[IVth Horseman]