PPT Charges

[Oldnoob]

I don't get all the people saying FFL should charge more for "their hard work" doing PPT. Have you ever seem a real professional gun shop clerk do PPT? It's done less then 15 min. And they don't cut corners neither. Paper work, copy IDs, finger prints, safety loading/unloading...etc.

For those in LA/OC area cal gunner, OC Indoor Range in Brea is a great place to shoot, shop, and PPT. I've try to do most my PPT there, they keep it clean and by the rules. $35 no BS, accept safe affidavits, 10 days on the mark.

And no, I don't work for them.

[bigcalidave]

Obviously with the attitudes of many gun stores, especially the know it all bs that the ones who overcharge for ppt, there isn't much emphasis on good sales tactics. They can't use a loss leader if they can't capitalize on it. I really can't believe the *****ing about people getting upset that the stores are breaking the law ! They are regulated, to charge a set fee so that people can afford the transfers. While many of us here know better than to pay more than $35, there are some who are too timid to argue, or simply don't know. They are being taken advantage of and will have a bitter attitude to that shop when they learn of the overcharging! I'd like to see a sticky or even a warning on each firearm for sale thread here, pointing out that you should ASK how much the total will be for ppt at the store you go to, before beginning the transfer.
As to the OP, posting the name of the store here is not going to "hurt your chances" of getting the gun. The store owner would have a lot more problems by trying to cause issue with your purchase than he would by learning very quickly that what he is doing is wrong, and if he doesn't change he will lose business.
Storage fees are BS, especially within the 10 days. Charging an additional $70 is TOTAL BS, and they need to learn better. Just because they are from marin (as was I) and are typical marin *******s who think they can overcharge for everything, doesn't make them exempt. I'd use this as a great opportunity for a gun store to get a lot of phone calls advising them of the law. If you post it here, I'm sure you will get your refund and your gun on day 10, simply because the community here tends to make very good phone calls. Otherwise you may report it to the DOJ without giving the guy a fair chance to learn and be taught.
Tell us, let the problem be solved.

[John Browning]

An argument can be made that the FFL has a right to reasonable fees for secure storage beyond the period considered in the PPT.

No, it can't. The fee is a maximum of $35 for the transaction, no matter if it goes beyond 10 days. If the gun is not picked up in 30 days, they have to repeat the process and can get another ten bucks. While most laws are very vague, this one is crystal clear. If you charge more than $35 for a PPT, you have committed a misdemeanor.

I don't understand your logic. By your reasoning, I should be able to steal $70 from your wallet, and then lecture you on why you are overreacting if you call the police. This dealer is stealing, breaking the law, and I hope all of us here have no problem tossing criminals to the justice system. I think it says a lot about a person when they are willing to rationalize and defend criminal behavior, and there are a few people here who aren't shining a positive light on themselves. We don't get to take what we feel entitled to. That is the justification of a thief, burglar and pickpocket.

To the OP, after you pick up your gun, take in a copy of your receipt and demand a refund. Send a copy of the receipt to the DOJ no matter what the outcome, and hopefully one of these FFLs will finally get their license pulled. That would probably stop these silly games where dealers try to see how much they can rip off unsuspecting victims for. There are a lot of GREAT shops to work with out there and these scam artists won't be missed. The last time I did a PPT at J&R, I bought about $200 in accessories. They had me in and out in 20 minutes, great service, very nice shop, and I make sure and buy enough high margin items to make my visit worth it to them. If anything, these shops should be happy to do a PPT. It is a state mandated way to get more traffic into gun shops. You get paid $10 and get the chance to add to your customer base.

[Casual Observer]

PPT is a service the FFLs are required to provide to the public in order for them to hold their licenses. The idea is they provide this service at a minimum cost to the public in order to be able to sell firearms since there is no alternative to do private firearm transfers.

I'm fully aware of WHY dealers are required to do PPT's and why the rate is low.

Doesn't change the fact that it is not enough to cover the cost to the FFL. For every PPT, the FFL is LOSING money which is something you want to avoid if you're running a business.

But, the law is the law, no matter how unfair it may seem (depending on your point of view).

[MiguelS]

Wondering is the FFL is a supporting Vendor?

As a first time gun owner (well T-5), if the seller did not tell me it was $10+$25, I would have not known. I thought it will be the normal dealer FFL cost, which is set by the dealer. I talked to the CSR as well and they stated it was only $35 cash only. No Problem.

The end result was that I also bought a pistol from them 2 days later.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=195398

-M

[Ezekiel2000]

Is this allowed then as well???/

The short answer is no, it is not.

[John Browning]

Doesn't change the fact that it is not enough to cover the cost to the FFL. For every PPT, the FFL is LOSING money which is something you want to avoid if you're running a business.

It is time to put this argument to rest. While FFLs feel like they should be getting more than $10, they are not losing money, and if they are smart, can use this as a chance to make a lot more money by building their customer base. It costs them $25 plus the cost of ink, they make ten bucks. Everything else is a fixed cost that they'd have to pay no matter if they did a PPT or didn't do one. It costs them no more to have another two bodies in their shop, they don't take on another employee, have to purchase special equipment, increase the money the spend on utilities, etc. The whole opportunity cost argument is bunk as well, because you can't say every customer who does a PPT only spends $35, and that every customer that waits while a PPT is handled would have spent hundreds of dollars if they weren't so inconvenienced to have to wait 20 minutes. They are actually getting the government to subsidize their advertising budget by forcing people to conduct transactions in gun shops.

I now head to Livermore to visit Doms and J&R instead of Kevin Smith in Martinez because Kevin charged me $45 for a PPT. That extra $10 has probably lost him at least $2500 in transfer fees alone. By charging more than $35, FFLs lose money. They do not lose money on a PPT at $35.

Lastly, if a FFL doesn't do PPTs, they don't get to have their license and can't sell guns. PPTs keep them in the good graces of the people they need to stay in good graces with if they like to do any business. It is much more expensive NOT do to a PPT, or to refuse a PPT. They don't have to spend any money and get foot traffic, and some have the business skills to not treat those customers like crap. If they had any sales skills, they'd be asking customers about what holster they'll be using, if they have snap caps, if they want any ammo, do they need cleaning supplies, do they want a gunsmith to check it out, etc.

[Casual Observer]

It is time to put this argument to rest. While FFLs feel like they should be getting more than $10, they are not losing money, and if they are smart, can use this as a chance to make a lot more money by building their customer base. It costs them $25 plus the cost of ink, they make ten bucks. Everything else is a fixed cost that they'd have to pay no matter if they did a PPT or didn't do one. It costs them no more to have another two bodies in their shop, they don't take on another employee, have to purchase special equipment, increase the money the spend on utilities, etc. The whole opportunity cost argument is bunk as well, because you can't say every customer who does a PPT only spends $35, and that every customer that waits while a PPT is handled would have spent hundreds of dollars if they weren't so inconvenienced to have to wait 20 minutes. They are actually getting the government to subsidize their advertising budget by forcing people to conduct transactions in gun shops.

I now head to Livermore to visit Doms and J&R instead of Kevin Smith in Martinez because Kevin charged me $45 for a PPT. That extra $10 has probably lost him at least $2500 in transfer fees alone. By charging more than $35, FFLs lose money. They do not lose money on a PPT at $35.

Lastly, if a FFL doesn't do PPTs, they don't get to have their license and can't sell guns. PPTs keep them in the good graces of the people they need to stay in good graces with if they like to do any business. It is much more expensive NOT do to a PPT, or to refuse a PPT. They don't have to spend any money and get foot traffic, and some have the business skills to not treat those customers like crap. If they had any sales skills, they'd be asking customers about what holster they'll be using, if they have snap caps, if they want any ammo, do they need cleaning supplies, do they want a gunsmith to check it out, etc.

I agree with you on most points. Having a good PPT experience will bring customers (and therefore money) back into the store.

But if you're looking at the PPT itself, in a vacuum, then $10 is running pretty close between the black and the red. If both the buyer and the seller have all their documentation in order and ready to go to transfer 1 handgun....you're probably right. 10 minutes worth of paperwork, make a few photo-copies, log the gun into the disposition and into the safe. Total time...maybe 15 minutes? And a good salesman can, as you said, turn both the buyer and seller onto some more products the store offers.

Now imagine a scenario where there's two not-so-prepared customers trying to transfer half a dozen long guns. Their licenses are old and won't swipe on the computer. Now we have to manually input the information. If there's issues regarding proof-of-residency for their residences, they want to know why their old address (or PO Box) on the license is not acceptable, or if there's an issue of establishing citizenship. The guns have to now be entered into the disposition and take up a lot more room in the limited-capacity safe (six long guns vs. one handgun), and then there's the issue of having to sell the buyer six locks even though there's no legal requirement to actually USE them. He wants to know why he has to buy $40 in locks. Total time can go from 15 minutes to 45 minutes pretty fast and you have a situation where $10 is DEFINITELY not enough money for the trouble.

And God forbid the buyer gets denied on the DROS.

[John Browning]

Now imagine a scenario where there's two not-so-prepared customers trying to transfer half a dozen long guns. Their licenses are old and won't swipe on the computer. Now we have to manually input the information. If there's issues regarding proof-of-residency for their residences, they want to know why their old address (or PO Box) on the license is not acceptable, or if there's an issue of establishing citizenship. The guns have to now be entered into the disposition and take up a lot more room in the limited-capacity safe (six long guns vs. one handgun), and then there's the issue of having to sell the buyer six locks even though there's no legal requirement to actually USE them. He wants to know why he has to buy $40 in locks. Total time can go from 15 minutes to 45 minutes pretty fast and you have a situation where $10 is DEFINITELY not enough money for the trouble.

And God forbid the buyer gets denied on the DROS.

No argument here, I wouldn't really want to deal with that for 10 bucks. But, the dealer is still not losing money because their costs are all fixed. It might be unpleasant, but it isn't putting them in the red. Just as if I were to go pick vegetables all day and get paid $35 bucks, I can say that it wasn't worth it to me, but I can't say that I'm losing money on the deal if doing the job costs me $25.

[ke6guj]

Now imagine a scenario where there's two not-so-prepared customers trying to transfer half a dozen long guns. Their licenses are old and won't swipe on the computer. Now we have to manually input the information. If there's issues regarding proof-of-residency for their residences, they want to know why their old address (or PO Box) on the license is not acceptable, or if there's an issue of establishing citizenship. The guns have to now be entered into the disposition and take up a lot more room in the limited-capacity safe (six long guns vs. one handgun), and then there's the issue of having to sell the buyer six locks even though there's no legal requirement to actually USE them. He wants to know why he has to buy $40 in locks. Total time can go from 15 minutes to 45 minutes pretty fast and you have a situation where $10 is DEFINITELY not enough money for the trouble.
And God forbid the buyer gets denied on the DROS.

yah, the time required can skyrocket, but you would be able to charge $85 for the PPT, $25 to CADOJ + $60 dealer fee (for 6 long guns).

[wildhawker]

Thank you for articulating this, very well said.

I'm not sure that many businesses, in general, fully identify and understand their costs. FFLs are likely no different. Unfortunately, the customers rarely understand business concepts any better than the business managers themselves.

Agreed. I have to set contract prices for services for 1 to 5 year contracts. With all the variables it can be a challenge. Of course being able to set pricing means you have to know your cost, my bet is many gun stores really don't know the true cost regarding PPTs.

I don't think FFLs who charge more than allowed for PPTs are always being mercenary about it - I think they are for the most part making a "Hobson's Choice" decision that it's better to charge more to the person using the service than to raise prices on inventory or to take a loss. Problem is, that's not legal so the alternative is either treat it as a loss leader and teach your guys to sell to a captive PPT audience or, figure out your cost and distribute it among your inventory.

[hill billy]

The fee is the law, if FFL's don't like it, work to change it or hand in your license.

" Gee, I think the FFL transfer requirement is unfair and costs me money, I'll just do my own transfer between my buddy and I"
Plug in whatever law you don't like. That's what you guys defending these FFL's charging these fees they KNOW are illegal are doing.

[leelaw]

yah, the time required can skyrocket, but you would be able to charge $85 for the PPT, $25 to CADOJ + $60 dealer fee (for 6 long guns).

Yup.

It requires an additional entry on the 4473 and bound books, and the "number of longguns" field edited to match the number of longguns on DROS. Minimal work, and plenty of time to build a positive reputation with the purchaser and seller, and possibly make a sale with the captive audience.

[hill billy]

and possibly make a sale with the captive audience.

I will and have bought things from people I didn't really need at that moment just because they earned my business through their attitude.

[wildhawker]

How

I don't get all the people saying FFL should charge more for "their hard work" doing PPT. Have you ever seem a real professional gun shop clerk do PPT? It's done less then 15 min. And they don't cut corners neither. Paper work, copy IDs, finger prints, safety loading/unloading...etc.

This is getting tiresome- between this, the "gouger" and "hoarder" threads I am confident that we've largely evolved into a culture with no respect for capitalist principles.

The market sets the price (unless the government ties your hands for you); you, largely, get to control your costs. The business will not be able to sell what customers are not interested in buying.

Regardless of how "hard" it is, there is value to the transaction; that value should not be defined by the government. You get to define it, as the consumer. The business who (given the legal opportunity) charges more for the service will either go out of business, or not.

A government-mandated process with a fixed unit price (set by the same government) but with no volume cap is a travesty.

How many hours of overtime were you legally obligated to provide at less than your regular time rate last week? Just chalk it up to cost of doing business (as an individual) and don't complain...