Help chooseing .38 defensive ammo

[pennstater]

Taczac, those Speer Gold Dots/135's should work well for your wife and yourself. You want a factory round in your HD/SD firearm for liability reasons.

[teflondog]

I tested all the recommended .38 special self defense ammo (Gold Dot, Critical Defense, Hydra-Shok, etc.) in a Ruger LCR. The only ammo that expanded in a pig carcass was this one. I didn't use denim in my tests.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/50rds-38-special-federal-le-158gr-p-semi-wadcutter-hp-ammo

[PaperTarget]

You can consider these too. CorBon DPX all copper 110 gr

https://shopcorbon.com/CORBON/DPX/DPX-Handgun/DPX38110-20

[CinnamonBear723]

135 grain .38 Special +P Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel.




Caselaw

This is a good option. Also hornady makes a 38 "lite" that are very easy to shoot. For economical reasons a simple 158g .38 non+p with a lead flat nose will get the job done without all the blast and recoil. Heavier rounds tend to be more accurate out of shorter barrels but I think you'll be fine with a 4"

[Milsurp Collector]

The wife finds the recoil too hard for her so I am looking for an alternative either in a .38 special +p or mid range .357 mag.

Hornady Critical Defense Lite Ammunition 38 Special 90 Grain Flex Tip eXpanding

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/hornady-critical-defense-lite-38-special-ftx-90-grain-25-rounds?a=1588975

[SquidBilly]

Go with a light weight XTP. Fiocchi 110gr are my favorite for my snubby if buying factory.

But I mostly roll my own hardcast 158gr SWC for carry.

[ilaw]

Are there still suggestions for wadcutters and Glasers? It's not the 1930s or 1980s any more. Even Hydra Shocks are out of date and are mediocre at best nowadays. If a bullet can't even perform in a basic gel test, how is it supposed to work in less than ideal situations?

Plenty of standard and +P .38 loaded with proven JHP bullets like Gold Dot, HST or Golden Saber. You know, ammo used by police depts nationwide.

You need to educate yourself about wadcutters.

[floogy]

You need to educate yourself about wadcutters.

I know they were used by police in the 1930s or even earlier. I also know they leave a straight wound channel no larger than .38". They also over penetrate. They were made to punch clean holes in paper, not people. I'm sure Dick Tracy still carries them, but I don't think either of us could name a single LE agency that still issues them as duty ammo. Not sure what else I need to educate myself about.




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[hambam105]

Advocating wadcutters for SD work is akin to recommending Walmart quality tennis shoes for a Fireman.

Wadcutters are specifically made cheaply to punch holes in paper. Any other ballistic use for wadcutters is not advisable at best and foolish at worst. In other words, in the past 75 years, name a LE agency or Firearms Examiner that prescribes or uses wadcutters.

Do not confuse the 148 or 158 grain semi-wadcutter, usually jacketed or Hollow point or sometimes described as hardcast.

Peterson's gun related magazines beat this issue to death in every other monthly periodical for about 25 years. I am surprised that it is still an issue.

[Che762x39]

Hi everyone, 1st post here... I currently keep a 4in S&W 686 ...

Thanks in advance!

Whatever standard 38 Special they have at Walmart. Usually WWB 130 grain FMJ. Now two females I knew who liked revolvers because their fathers were lawmen back in the revolver days.

Most women do better with a semi auto today unless they have a revolver background like I pointed out.

[Che762x39]

Are there still suggestions for wadcutters and Glasers? It's not the 1930s or 1980s any more. Even Hydra Shocks are out of date and are mediocre at best nowadays. If a bullet can't even perform in a basic gel test, how is it supposed to work in less than ideal situations?

Plenty of standard and +P .38 loaded with proven JHP bullets like Gold Dot, HST or Golden Saber. You know, ammo used by police depts nationwide.

An arthritic 80 year old armed with a revolver loaded with wadcutters is better served than a heavy/stout/snappy round. Remember it's not the size of the gun in the gunfight; it's the size of the fight in the gunfighter.

[Che762x39]

Advocating wadcutters for SD work is akin to recommending Walmart quality tennis shoes for a Fireman.

Wadcutters are specifically made cheaply to punch holes in paper. Any other ballistic use for wadcutters is not advisable ...

So tell us about the last homicide you worked in CA. What worked there?

Maybe floogy can add his latest homicide he work too.

[floogy]

An arthritic 80 year old armed with a revolver loaded with wadcutters is better served than a heavy/stout/snappy round. Remember it's not the size of the gun in the gunfight; it's the size of the fight in the gunfighter.

I didn't say they had to be loaded hot. There are plenty of light recoiling modern .38 loads. Anyone is better served with hollow points that will expand reliably and not overpenetrate and waste what little energy a .38 has.


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[MrOrange]

Basic target wadcutters are my recommendation for the recoil sensitive. When my 80+ year old, severely arthritic mother had me set up an HD gun for her (a 640), that was what I was planning on having her use, but it turned out she could handle 158 gr LSWC +P's just fine. BTW I also had her handle a GP-100 and a 625, as well as a couple autos, and the compact revolver was the only one she felt comfortable with.

I currently have those same loads in my HD piece, but when funds permit I'll be using the Buffalo Bore hardcast wadcutters.

To my mind, under penetration is a much bigger problem than over penetration, especially in handgun cartridges, and especially in less powerful ones like .38 Spl. See the Miami shootout, etc. The ammo revolution that occurred in the aftermath of that incident was due to the FBI realizing that speed and expansion were useless without penetration. The old hit with a tennis racket vs. hit with a sledge hammer thing. Re: "wasted energy", the energy needed to cause expansion is expended on the bullet, not the target.

Mr. Tim explains it well on the .44 Spl wadcutter ("Anti-Personnel") page:



I don't know if he's ever worked any homicides, but he's certainly shot a lot of big dangerous critters. Given the choice between the opinions of him and Cirillo, who may not have investigated any homicides but sure caused a few dozen, and students of gelatin expansion, I know whose side I'm on.

[floogy]

Basic target wadcutters are my recommendation for the recoil sensitive. When my 80+ year old, severely arthritic mother had me set up an HD gun for her (a 640), that was what I was planning on having her use, but it turned out she could handle 158 gr LSWC +P's just fine. BTW I also had her handle a GP-100 and a 625, as well as a couple autos, and the compact revolver was the only one she felt comfortable with.

I currently have those same loads in my HD piece, but when funds permit I'll be using the Buffalo Bore hardcast wadcutters.

To my mind, under penetration is a much bigger problem than over penetration, especially in handgun cartridges, and especially in less powerful ones like .38 Spl. See the Miami shootout, etc. The ammo revolution that occurred in the aftermath of that incident was due to the FBI realizing that speed and expansion were useless without penetration. The old hit with a tennis racket vs. hit with a sledge hammer thing. Re: "wasted energy", the energy needed to cause expansion is expended on the bullet, not the target.

Mr. Tim explains it well on the .44 Spl wadcutter ("Anti-Personnel") page:



I don't know if he's ever worked any homicides, but he's certainly shot a lot of big dangerous critters. Given the choice between the opinions of him and Cirillo, who may not have investigated any homicides but sure caused a few dozen, and students of gelatin expansion, I know whose side I'm on.

I guess old myths die hard.

If your mom is recoil sensitive and can still handle +P, why would anything less be necessary? There is plenty of standard pressure ammo with less recoil. I don't use +P ammo in my defensive handguns because the small gain in FPS isn't worth the added recoil. Does a wadcutter have less recoil than JHPs going the same speed?

The FBI spec for duty ammo is 12-18" in 10% ordnance gel. Ballistics gel is not an analog for the human body. It is merely a way of testing penetration and expansion in a controlled way. 12-18" of penetration of a human body is not typically required for incapacitation. As you mentioned, the FBI Miami shootout made them adopt the 40 S&W by way of the 10mm. The 9mm Silvertips carried by one of the agents was and still is not a reliable JHP design. Part of the reason for the huge jump to 10mm. A lot of newer bullets now expand reliably at much lower velocities and varying situations than older designs. Hence the switch back to 9mm.

Yes, certain calibers like 25, 32 or 380 can certainly under penetrate with JHP ammo. .38 and 9mm standard pressure ammo will have zero issues hitting vital areas with ammo that can expand to over double their original size. The biggest issue with non-expanding ammo is permanent wound channel. Permanent wound channels cause the bleeding required for incapacitation. FMJ and wadcutter bullets make a wound channel exactly the size of the bullet. This causes pass throughs (dangerous) and tiny wound channels that increase the amount if time to incapacitation.

As far as the "cutting and crushing" I hear so much about, the wound channel is still half the size of a good JHP. If you want to cut and crush, use Winchester Ranger T. I really don't know what evidence is available to support how flat nose bullets damage significantly more tissue than JHP bullets. But most of it I've seen is anecdotal and several decades old.

I don't know who Mr. Tim is. But if he's a big game hunter, then yes, deeply penetrating bullets for thick skinned game are necessary. I'm not sure how much that translates to defense against humans, but OK.

No LE agency currently issues non expanding duty ammunition that I'm aware of. Even the NYPD stopped their nonsense policy of issuing FMJ ammo because they were concerned about the wounds that JHP bullets create. Too many failed incapacitations and innocents wounded by pass throughs.

If wadcutters and semi wadcutter bullets were significantly better at incapacitating bad guys than modern JHPs, they would still be issued. They are not. The FBI created a comprehensive testing protocol for their duty ammo and firearms. I doubt anyone could do a more detailed assessment. Which is why many LE agencies follow their lead. They did all the work and spent all the money testing. Why not?

FBI Approved Ammo List

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/184111-list-fbi-approved-ammo.html

FBI Justification for Return to 9mm (relates to modern ammunition)

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/