Marksmanship question

[JTROKS]

You don't have to keep looking, there is no more accurate explanation. No matter what other people choose to believe, trigger management will always have the greatest impact on accurate shooting

Yes it's all about simple trigger management. It's the knowledge in the fundamentals, gripping and timing, mental prep, consistency, and countless practice to learn simple trigger management.

[divingin]

You don't have to keep looking, there is no more accurate explanation. No matter what other people choose to believe, trigger management will always have the greatest impact on accurate shooting

Overly simplistic. The sight alignment is what is most important. You can jerk or yank the trigger all you want; as long as the sights stay lined up, the shot will be good. A smooth even trigger squeeze won't do a thing if your sight alignment is off. In practice, it is a combination of the two - a smooth gentle squeeze that allows you to see introduced sight error and correct it.

[IVC]

You can jerk or yank the trigger all you want; as long as the sights stay lined up, ...

That's the definition of trigger control - being able to pull it without disturbing the sight picture.

Also, as HopetonBrown pointed out, you need the so-called "acceptable sight picture" for action shooting, not the "perfect sight picture." The misalignment of the sight doesn't matter as long as your trigger technique can ensure that "what you see when you pull the trigger" doesn't change *while* you're pulling the trigger. The closer the target, the faster you can get to the acceptable sight picture precisely because it doesn't have to be perfect.

On the other hand, if you cannot pull the trigger correctly, it doesn't matter how well the sights are aligned when you start the pull. You'll get it all messed up *during* the pull. What you call "keeping the sights aligned during the pull" is not an aiming technique, it's a trigger pull technique. It's even practiced in dry fire with a blank wall and intentionally without any target to aim at.

[tbc]

Marksmanship question

Op, you were anticipating. It's in your head. Not that easy to to fix. The margin of error from anticipating is significantly larger comparing to the error from trigger squeeze. Just my two cents, what do I know....


Hope this one helps.

[divingin]

That's the definition of trigger control - being able to pull it without disturbing the sight picture.

You're missing the point. You're saying that trigger control is setting the shot off without disturbing the sight picture, but that sight picture is not important?

Also, as HopetonBrown pointed out, you need the so-called "acceptable sight picture" for action shooting, not the "perfect sight picture."

I don't think OP ever said what kind of shooting he was doing.

The misalignment of the sight doesn't matter as long as your trigger technique can ensure that "what you see when you pull the trigger" doesn't change *while* you're pulling the trigger. The closer the target, the faster you can get to the acceptable sight picture precisely because it doesn't have to be perfect.

Yes, action shooting to degree stresses time over accuracy. But the original question was about accuracy, not time.

What you call "keeping the sights aligned during the pull" is not an aiming technique, it's a trigger pull technique.

No, it's called pistol (or revolver, depending) shooting technique. As I said, it's a combination of the two. Why do you think Olympic shooters wear lenses that correct for clear vision at the sights? Because they're unimportant?

[tanks]

The OP was shooting groups in slow fire and the groups were opening up. I'd wager that he knows how to aim. His issue seems to be anticipating the shot and jerking the trigger (a flinch maybe) resulting in an imprecise shot.

[the Scholar]

Yeah, I think getting more range time will help more as well (obviously, haha). I ended up hitting the range again this past Monday and my groups were consistently getting better and tighter. I think the trip to the range right before posting this question resulted in me flinching and over thinking quite a bit. I was concentrating so hard on having a good solid grip and slowly squeezing the trigger. However, I was really squeezing the grip and it resulted in opening up my shots quite a bit.

This past trip to the range, I relaxed quite a bit and my groups got a lot tighter and better. I still pull slightly to the left but it is very consistent (next thing to work on).

[wpage]

Cheek plant helps but its really a combo of proper breathing. Trigger control posture and other factors that make a good shot...

[IVC]

You're missing the point.

We are saying essentially the same thing, so no point in getting into argument about semantics.

To the OP: Everything happens *before* the bullet leaves the barrel. You cannot influence it after it's on its way. If you have the correct sight picture as the bullet is leaving the barrel, you will hit where you aimed no matter where the gun goes after the bullet has left. The trick is to have the gun pointed in the correct direction at this critical moment, which means that you shouldn't move it while pulling the trigger and you shouldn't move it just prior to the shot (flinch) in order to compensate for where the gun will go *after* the bullet has left the barrel.

[RickD427]

You may be flinching when going slow. On your first shot, look at the spot in target you want to hit and bring sights up to it then squeeze trigger straight back quickly. That's your reference point now.

Try to hit that first shot hole on target every time when going slow or fast. Only thing you would need to adjust is your sight high or low depending on where consequent shots are placing. The groups should be tight which verifies right grip, sights, trigger squeeze, etc

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

It's not uncommon. Many bullseye shooters see a similar thing, shooting better scores timed fire vs slow fire. It's generally trying to be too accurate during slowfire - trying to let the shot go when sights and position on target all look good, which leads to less than ideal trigger control. Timed fire, you watch the sights more and trust that if they're lined up, the shots will be good no matter where on the target it is, and they usually are.

Are you trying to spot your shots as soon as you have fired them? Squeeze the trigger and keep focusing on the front sight and don't bother checking where the last shot went until well after it has been fired.

The answer is in your post - you anticipate the shot.

The most important part of accurate shooting is trigger control. You don't even need to aim until you have figured out how to pull the trigger without disturbing the sight alignment. What you see won't be what you hit until then.

In faster fire, there is a good chance that you're concentrating on the clock instead of anticipating the recoil, which reduces the flinch. If you are pushing the limit and firing as soon as the sights are back on target, you also reduce flinch because you use the next shot to compensate for the downward movement of the gun.

Hard to tell without a video, though, so take all of this with a grain of salt.

This would also be my first guess.

As a diagnostic, try doing the old-fashioned "Ball and Dummy" exercise. That one has done a lot to help folks identify, and fix, problems with flinching and shot anticipation.

[tanks]

...

This past trip to the range, I relaxed quite a bit and my groups got a lot tighter and better. I still pull slightly to the left but it is very consistent (next thing to work on).

One thing to consider between group shooting and action shooting is that in group (bullseye) shooting people also relax their grip in order to have a smooth trigger press. That does not help when one is trying to shoot multiple accurate shots per second as control of the muzzle flip goes out the window.

You want to relax your body, but not your grip, in that hold tight enough while still being able to move the trigger finger smoothly with the strong hand and tighter with the support hand.

[the Scholar]

One thing to consider between group shooting and action shooting is that in group (bullseye) shooting people also relax their grip in order to have a smooth trigger press. That does not help when one is trying to shoot multiple accurate shots per second as control of the muzzle flip goes out the window.

You want to relax your body, but not your grip, in that hold tight enough while still being able to move the trigger finger smoothly with the strong hand and tighter with the support hand.

I see your point. This past trip to the range was more relaxed for me as in I wasn't squeezing the firearm with a death grip. I still had a good positive grip on the pistol so I felt like I had good control on it.

I just need more trigger time. I don't go nearly as much as I used to back in the day and have been spending a considerable amount of time doing "action" shooting with some classes that teach more tactical stuff but glaze over the marksmanship skills.

One thing that I have also noticed that is somewhat odd is that I am almost always spot on target with slow and steady DA trigger pulls. Not sure what this means but was an observation.

[XDJYo]

A few things from my experience.

Sight alignment, sight picture and finally trigger press are the three essentials to good shooting. The trigger press can be summed up by controlling the first two steps so that when the trigger breaks, your sights are exactly where you want them to be. Aka trigger control.

As far as worse accuracy when shooting fast vs slow, I can sorta understand that. If you practice the three steps consistently and are aiming at an X or bullseye, then you should be accurate.

However, if you are chasing your shots or peering over your sights or worried about where that last shot went, it will lead to inaccurate shots. Just keep the sights on the X. Your grouping should get much better.

Consistency with those three will help. Then, bring the speed up.

Just my 2 cents. After adjusting for inflation, taxed at 99% of my 1%, I owe...

[the Scholar]

"Threat!"

Sounds like you're burning bad reps over there.

Well, I should be more clear. They don't glaze over the marksmanship stuff, they just rather concentrate on the more tactical stuff. Marksmanship can be practiced on one's own in my opinion as long as you have the basics down.

[heyjerr]

Maybe when you're going slowly you don't bother to bring the sights back into alignment before resetting the trigger? May sound stupid but it's actually rather calming.