"Point Shooting methods" ???

[Subotai]

Point shooting works great if the distance is short, like in your hallway.

[IVC]

Point shooting is a pretty broad term for types of shooting where one doesn't aim by sight, but instead uses consistent technique to hit the target.

However, shooting with visual aiming also heavily relies on the proper technique and consistency, so point shooting is (should be) very similar to regular shooting, except that at the last step the sights are not used.

In both cases what matters is how the presentation of the firearm is done. Under stress, motor skills deteriorate quickly so muscle control is diminished and the presentation technique should rely mostly on limitations of joints and not on the muscle control.

For example, the best technique that I've seen for defensive shooting consists of drawing with the strong hand, meeting the weak hand around abdomen, lifting elbows and arms as far as they go on the chest, then extending arms as far in the straight line as they will go. The benefit of this technique is that there is no use of muscle control - both movements are limited by how far the joints flex/extend so over/under-controlling muscles under stress doesn't affect the form.

[ElvenSoul]

To practice your going to need a sling shot and

http://www.chiefaj.com

[Paul053]

John mcphee, a 20 Army Delta Sergeant Major told me his take on the whole point shooting techniques. I took a class from him and he explained that the difference in speed between the conscious mind and unconscious mind is vast. The unconscious mind works thousands of times faster than the conscious mind. He stated that when we train with our sights thst is in graining rep after rep of muscle memory. His argues that once you have developed thst muscle memory and need to use your weapon your conscious mind is too slow to recognize that your unconscious mind has already brought your sights up into you field of view and pressed the trigger. He said he used to do this exercise to provide that you cannot make accurate hits beyond 10 yards. He had a glock with no sights on it and would shoot at 5,7,10,15 yards. At 5 he had a decent cluster but as he moved farther and farther out would start dropping shots and the dispersion became larger. Beyond 15 yards he could barely keep it on paper.

So says thst you cannot make accurate and consistent hits without seeing your sights. If you do make hits it is either pure luck or thst you trained enough to make hits with sights thst in a fight situation your mind is already doing whst it needs to do to make the shot thst you don't even recognize it and therefore assume that it is all point shooting.
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[bwhited]

It all comes down to having an acceptable sight picture for the needed accuracy.
Contact shots do not need a visual sight picture. Just make sure the firearm is making contact with what you are shooting at before pulling the trigger.
Some nearer shots can be done by seeing the firearm in the target.
The longer the shot the more defined the sight picture is needed.
How good a sight picture needed at a given distance is largely dependent on the shooter. Some people can point shoot at 25 yards. Some people need a well defined sight picture at 7 yards. It all comes down to practice and knowing what you can do.

[Subotai]

John mcphee, a 20 Army Delta Sergeant Major told me his take on the whole point shooting techniques. I took a class from him and he explained that the difference in speed between the conscious mind and unconscious mind is vast. The unconscious mind works thousands of times faster than the conscious mind. He stated that when we train with our sights thst is in graining rep after rep of muscle memory. His argues that once you have developed thst muscle memory and need to use your weapon your conscious mind is too slow to recognize that your unconscious mind has already brought your sights up into you field of view and pressed the trigger. He said he used to do this exercise to provide that you cannot make accurate hits beyond 10 yards. He had a glock with no sights on it and would shoot at 5,7,10,15 yards. At 5 he had a decent cluster but as he moved farther and farther out would start dropping shots and the dispersion became larger. Beyond 15 yards he could barely keep it on paper.

So says thst you cannot make accurate and consistent hits without seeing your sights. If you do make hits it is either pure luck or thst you trained enough to make hits with sights thst in a fight situation your mind is already doing whst it needs to do to make the shot thst you don't even recognize it and therefore assume that it is all point shooting.
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First bold: "Muscle memory" is also referred to as "nerve memory", which is probably a better description. Second bold: Same thing in traditional archery. You are sighting in "subconsciously". This comes only with lots of practice. So, I completely agree with the Delta guy, though I think with enough practice he could tighten groups at 15 yards. Not something I want to spend my money on personally.

I practice point shooting from 10 ft. and under. My only concern at that point is body mass hits. Like in the old gangster movies where one guy shoots another in a room - unholster, pull trigger.

[fritztkatt]

Somewhat similar to what Paul said, I was unconsciously learning, and then formally taught in a class (Mclaren defense).

We only used it at 5 yards, which is quite reasonable for the concept of "point" shooting. The idea and goal is that you have enough proficiency with your weapon, that you can quickly draw, present, and fire without using the sights. The way I was taught (which made me realize I was unconsciously doing this at very close targets in idpa, like 2-3 yards), relies heavily on consistent grip and presentation.

The execution of the task seems to depend on your trigger finger. The drills I messed up, I noted that my finger was far up on the slide instead of straight or on the trigger. Thus throwing off my ability to accurately "point". Another caveat was that the presentation is consistent with a normal, proper one. I was not taught to hold the gun by my hip or chest, but to get a full push out.

Having some skill with my handgun to begin with, the concept being explained, some dry fire, I was making about a 5" group at 5 yards doing double taps.

If one performs the task properly, they can move their head/eye to the sights, and see a good sight alignment/picture on the target. Try this at home with a clear gun.

Simple explanation: look at target, point gun at target without shifting focus of eyes. Check by looking at sights.

Usually I'm only a couple inches off at 7 yards, but still close enough for a man size target. I'd say it's ideal for <5, effective to <7, with a max of <10 yards. No doubt a practiced gunslinger could do much better.

The second shot, still devoid of sights, relies heavily on good recoil control. Stance, grip, presentation (lockout of support arm), breaking wrists forward, and driving the gun. IE just shooting correctly. The gun cycles so fast that if you can feel the trigger reset, you're back on target when you used good recoil control.

[MrOrange]

I think "point shooting" might be a misnomer for what many are saying here. If you bring the gun up to your line of sight, even if you don't focus on the sights, that's still aimed fire.

There is a range of focus that I use (from the great Massad Ayoob, BTW) that ranges from the silhouette of the gun over the target, to what I call "the shotgun-look" over the top of the gun, to the front sight only, to the front sight hovering near the rear sight, to the front sight settled down and lined up nicely in the rear notch, depending on the shot required.

Point shooting means unaimed shooting.

This is from the 1950's:



This was when it was proven empirically that point shooting was vastly inferior to aimed fire, even at very close range where speed was of utmost importance. Anecdotally, there are plenty of after-action comments from point shooters akin to: "I can't believe I missed him from three feet away when I qualified expert."



Old-timey point shooting. You can't tell in this pic, but in a print version you can see that they're pointing their guns so accurately at the camera that you can see the firing pin holes in the breechfaces of all their weapons. All these guys learned to shoot aimed fire if they actually wanted to connect fast enough to win. Thell Reed, the guy in the center, made a habit out of hip-shooting iron chickens at 50 yards with an SAA, but he used both hands and aimed for serious use.

[softmentor]

I am certainly no pro on this. Not a newbie either. Had some good training, some practice. I used to carry exposed for armed private security and part of the qualifier we had to shoot every 6 months, was on a target 7 feet (correct me if I'm off on the distance) draw from holster and with the gun at hip level and in front of you, arm not extended, deliver a pair to the 8 ring (8 is the center ring) and repeat that a couple more times. I was always able to gt 7's and 8's. That is definitely point shooting since the sights are not any where near your eye alignment line.
In IPSC match we had a stage with 7 targets all really tight to each other with lots of overlap. targets at 3 feet. I approached this stage with 10 + 1 so that I could get off 10 rounds without a slide lock. Shot the first 4 targets (2 per target) with both hands, point shooting, shot the 5th target one handed as my support hand moved to the spare mag. Still point shooting, pulling the trigger as fast as it could for the pair. Dropped the empty mag (with HK USP this is easy to do one handed) by now my second mag is out of the holster and ready. Started inserted the mag. As soon as the mag was aligned on the mag well and starting to travel up, moved to the 6 target and pointed in, as the mag slammed home. Shot 6 one handed, shot 7 2 handed.
I usually shoot solidly at the bottom of the middle third in our club, but that stage I shot second fastest time in the club including the unlimited guys. I shoot stock gun, 10 round.
My point being that at that range, I have a very good feel for point shooting.
And the reason they test for it on the quali. is if you have a threat that close you don't have time or room to extend your arms and sight in. You need to get the rounds off fast. If you are already in contact and in a fight for your life, you better be able to get a couple of rounds off on the threat.
Its worth practicing as a part of your overall practice. Could save your life someday.
At 10 yards I have no hope at point shooting well. I've tried. I'll put 6 on the body silhouette if I rapid fire 10 rounds with only point shooting at 10 yards. Point shooting, I believe, is for close quarters when you don't have room or time to sight in.
Shot gun, toss a clay by hand and I kinda aim with my eye but there is no sight and I hit clay 98 times out of 100. the other 2 are just sloppy laziness.

[nothingextra]

Sig night sights used to have a dot on the front sight for a reason.
Yes, you can look over your rear dots to the dot on top of the front sight and make a reasonable hit.

You can also do this with a S&W 66 with its big ol red ramp front.

I can shoot a 6-ball into corner pocket by lining up and making a good stroke.
I can also shoot a bank shot looking over the balls at the diamonds on the rails, relative to pockets.

I'm not going to spend any more time wondering what gun fu is better.
Just sink the money ball when you have to.

https://youtu.be/cCTtYBgU1uM

[pointshooter11]

This is what your looking for...

[QUOTE=Friesland;18642653]

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/bio/

I have tried it and it does bring the gun into alignment to your intended target without having to aim with the sights. Therefore, you will be able to get off a very fast (and accurate) first shot. Try it for yourself for confirmation.

It would also work well in low light or night-time shooting where you may only see shades or shapes of the target but still would need to make hits.

The only drawback might be that (as a right-handed shooter) the left elbow might be sticking out some (too much) and might get hit by an opponent's shot.

[hambam105]

Identify your target, point, aim, squeeze, follow thru. Repeat on an 'as needed basis'.

[Friesland]

Very informative, great responses. I intended the question towards close encounters.

Only real instruction I've had, the trainer suggested elbows tight to hips/sides and two handed. This worked quit well at the range, however, the target was set up for the shooter standing and even though I was on target I could also see my shoots leaving the targets and hitting the ceiling.

As was posted above a firearm with a correct grip might improve/ lower my hits. The target was about 10+ feet from me. For a beginning sport shooter (me) nice tight group. The problem, the firearm was about 3 1/2 ft above the floor and the target hits 4 1/2++ ft. those bullets were going to cover a lot of ground.



Many Thanks Pointshooter11

[deephouse]

&amp;quot;Point Shooting methods&amp;quot; ???

The two handed grip:

https://youtu.be/BeSpwAA_0DU

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[CouchOperator]

Are you willing to stand in front of a jury and defend point shooting as a responsible method of aim? How would you feel if one of your pointed rounds struck a bystander? You will never miss fast enough to win. Use your sights.

The one caveat is in a hands-on physical engagement where pressing the gun firmly into their body to deliver rounds is necessary. Chances are it will be into their abdomen/thoracic cavity; and this is under the assumption that you have the gun out already, or the opportunity to safely do so before it becomes a struggle over a holstered gun.
Weaponlights make fantastic standoffs for semiauto's to keep the gun in battery for such circumstances.