AR Pistol Question

[ReddingShooter]

hey guys and gals.....

I also posted this in another section but no replies so i figured id leave it here also....


i know this has been talked about in length in many many threads, and this may not be the correct area to post this but what i have found really is so many contradicting statements on the issue of forward grips on an AR pistol in california.. i was asked by a good friend of mine awhile back if it was legal in california if you own a bullet buttoned AR pistol if he could legally have a forward grip....

i told him i was not sure and i would so some searching, but it seems as i said there is always 5000 different opinions on the issue so im hoping that somehow somewere someone can say for sure.

my understanding is ( and PLEASE correct me if i am wrong )


1.if you own an AR pistol, and it has a bullet button installed, a forward grip is OK under CALIFORNIA law as any BS over "evil features" does NOT apply.

2. FEDERALLY if your AR pistol is OVER 26" (such as would be usually if your build was with a 10.5" barrel) that the forward grip issue also DOES NOT APPLY as per BATFE it wouldnt be considered a pistol.


thanks in advance, and please lets try to keep the answers to the KNOWN FACTS, and not run off in 5000 different directions on what ifs and maybes..

[jdben92883]

No forward grips on pistols. So #1 and #2 are inaccurate.

[ReddingShooter]

No forward grips on pistols. So #1 and #2 are inaccurate.

OK, NOW SEE, the information in #1 and #2 are info directly from the pages of calguns.

can you elaborate on where the no forward grip info comes from ? im just trying to get to the bottom of all the hundreds of different opinions.

[Calico1404]

No Forward grip, however ANGLED grips have been approved with letters from ATF. And the OAL also includes language about barrel length.

[Kmai24]

From what I understand with ar pistols angle grips are okay, vertical no bueno

[Calico1404]

I see people treading to close to the OAL pitch to avoid having to stick to the pistol tube etc. It all comes down, in my opinion, to the LEO or Agency who decides you are a perfect test sample. Especially with some of the vagueness of the OAL rule. Some fed guidelines call for a collapsible stock to be fully extended for measurement, others call for a "easily removable stock" to be removed then measured, well adjustable stocks in my opinion are pretty easily removed, so where does this fall? And this is for rifles so imagine the scrutiny on pistols.

Keep it legal, keep it well in the legal realm, angled grip, pistol tube or approved apparatus for cheek support, this is for anything with a barrel under 16" , again this is only my personal opinion.

[gun toting monkeyboy]

I believe what he is trying to say is that both of your statements are correct.

The laws dealing with forward vertical grips on pistols are not California laws. California left that to the corresponding Federal law to cover. So while your AR pistol is still considered to be a Pistol by the state, and you have to make sure that it complies with the AWB, there is nothing on the books here in California (edit: aside from the AWB laws) that says you can't stick a forward grip on it.

The Federal laws say that a pistol can not have a forward pistol grip on it without going through the AOW process. However, the ATF has ruled that anything that is 26 or more inches in length is NOT a pistol. And since it is not a pistol, there is no need to treat it as an AOW. It is simply a Title 1 firearm that is not made to be fired from the shoulder. Definitely NOT a pistol. And since it is not a pistol, a vertical front grip is perfectly legal. The one caveat that seems to be floating around out there is what constitutes 26". There is some conflicting information as to whether or not anything attached to the muzzle is counted in that overall length if it is not welded or permanently attached to the firearm. I have yet to see an official letter ruling on this from the ATF. However, I tend to err on the side of caution, so I usually swap out the pistol buffer tube for a rifle buffer tube to get a couple of extra inches on the overall length. Whether or not you feel you need to is up to you.

-Mb

[phase1]

He's right no vfg on pistols, but once is OAL is over 26" it's considered a firearm so a VFG is ok

[ReddingShooter]

ok, i JUST NOW got off the hon with victor at the DOJ firearms section.....while i was on the phone, he told me to pull up section 30515 of the penal code, and had me read thru it as he was on the phone and specifically pointed out the following, and asked me if the AR pistol violated the following:





he said while he couldnt and wouldnt give a "legal" opinion, that if a bullet button was installed, that a forward grip should/would be OK at california state level, BUT may violate FEDERAL law...

if you go by the above portion of 30515 PC

(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine

[LeadFarmer74]

ok, i JUST NOW got off the hon with victor at the DOJ firearms section.....while i was on the phone, he told me to pull up section 30515 of the penal code, and had me read thru it as he was on the phone and specifically pointed out the following, and asked me if the AR pistol violated the following:





he said while he couldnt and wouldnt give a "legal" opinion, that if a bullet button was installed, that a forward grip should/would be OK at california state level, BUT may violate FEDERAL law...

if you go by the above portion of 30515 PC

(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine

Unless you get it in writing then it just one persons opinion. Mb pretty much nailed it.

[ReddingShooter]

so the way im reading everything, in california, if you have an AR pistol with a fixed 10rd magazine, then VFG is OK.......federally if its over 26" a VFG is also ok as it isnt considered a pistol...


does that about sum it up?

( the AR pistol in question is 26 1/2")

[gun toting monkeyboy]

ReddingShooter:

Don't rely on anything that the DOJ tells you. They are often some of the worst informed people out there. And if they give you bad advice, and you get caught, they won't back you up. Don't trust them. In this case, however, it actually sounds like he knows what he is talking about. I know, I am as shocked as everybody else. The key word in the California laws is "detachable" when it comes to magazines. By adding a bullet button, you render that point moot, and remove the AR pistol from the laws regarding the AWB.

The BATFE agents that you call may or may not be able to answer your questions as well. However, their opinions don't supersede the written letters issued by the ATF regarding this matter. If you do a google search of "Franklin Armory" and "ATF Letter", you should turn up an official letter from them to Franklin Armory explaining their position on the matter, and stating that anything over 26" in length isn't a pistol, and doesn't need to go the AOW route.

-Mb

[ReddingShooter]

I believe what he is trying to say is that both of your statements are correct.

The laws dealing with forward vertical grips on pistols are not California laws. California left that to the corresponding Federal law to cover. So while your AR pistol is still considered to be a Pistol by the state, and you have to make sure that it complies with the AWB, there is nothing on the books here in California that says you can't stick a forward grip on it.

The Federal laws say that a pistol can not have a forward pistol grip on it without going through the AOW process. However, the ATF has ruled that anything that is 26 or more inches in length is NOT a pistol. And since it is not a pistol, there is no need to treat it as an AOW. It is simply a Title 1 firearm that is not made to be fired from the shoulder. Definitely NOT a pistol. And since it is not a pistol, a vertical front grip is perfectly legal. The one caveat that seems to be floating around out there is what constitutes 26". There is some conflicting information as to whether or not anything attached to the muzzle is counted in that overall length if it is not welded or permanently attached to the firearm. I have yet to see an official letter ruling on this from the ATF. However, I tend to err on the side of caution, so I usually swap out the pistol buffer tube for a rifle buffer tube to get a couple of extra inches on the overall length. Whether or not you feel you need to is up to you.

-Mb

see, this is pretty much how i understood everything to be.

i just spoke to BATFE also, and was asked right off the bat if the pistol in question was OVER 26" from end to end ( which it is) and was told directly by them it wouldnt be considered a pistol under those circumstances, so VFG would be OK...

[ReddingShooter]

ReddingShooter:

Don't rely on anything that the DOJ tells you. They are often some of the worst informed people out there. And if they give you bad advice, and you get caught, they won't back you up. Don't trust them. In this case, however, it actually sounds like he knows what he is talking about. I know, I am as shocked as everybody else. The key word in the California laws is "detachable" when it comes to magazines. By adding a bullet button, you render that point moot, and remove the AR pistol from the laws regarding the AWB.

The BATFE agents that you call may or may not be able to answer your questions as well. However, their opinions don't supersede the written letters issued by the ATF regarding this matter. If you do a google search of "Franklin Armory" and "ATF Letter", you should turn up an official letter from them to Franklin Armory explaining their position on the matter, and stating that anything over 26" in length isn't a pistol, and doesn't need to go the AOW route.

-Mb

oh i follow you on the DOJ info. just try to get them to issue a ruling letter....HAHAHAH

[gun toting monkeyboy]

see, this is pretty much how i understood everything to be.

i just spoke to BATFE also, and was asked right off the bat if the pistol in question was OVER 26" from end to end ( which it is) and was told directly by them it wouldnt be considered a pistol under those circumstances, so VFG would be OK...

Well, it is good to see that they are finally catching up with the times. However, DO NOT rely on them unless you get something in writing. What they say over the phone won't keep you out of jail.

-Mb