Profiling Handgunners

[gunprofit]

phantomx48, you make excellent points! A shooter should be very diversified when he practices shooting. My thread was not intended to approve of one type of shooting over the other. My intention was to explain how I thought shooting styles have changed from one extreme to another. I definitely believe you should not shoot only one style. I have always practiced all the different disciplines of target shooting and combat shooting with everything in-between. As a gunshop and shooting range owner of so many years, I had some instances where shootings occurred. Shoot and move kept me alive. That's one of the reasons I shot IPSC, USPSA and other combat style competitions that were much better suited to real life realistic situations. However, I also had a passion for super accurate type shooting and competed in those as well.

It's fun to shoot your preferred style of shooting, but it's smart to shoot and practice all types of shooting.

I would also mention that education regarding using firearms is important. Over the years, I obtained every type of NRA firearms instruction certification they offer. I created and taught many of my own classes. But even to this day, I continue to take other peoples classes. I've taken all the private big name training. I've attended military and police classes. I was in the Marine Corps. Many times I don't learn a thing. A good number of times, I learn something I had not thought of, or had forgotten and it brought it back to the forefront. If a guy is going to own and shoot firearms for whatever reason, many things can be learned without holding a gun in your hand.

[SonofWWIIDI]

I attempt to accurately fire a variety of guns at a variety of distances using smallish targets. 3" & 6" shoot n c rounds, normally pasted over the vital areas of a silhouette style target. 2 handed, one handed, both eyes open, either eye open (never know when your dominant eye may be unusable).

Frankly when I'm at the range (indoor usually as it is most convenient for me) most of the people there are as you describe. Blasting away at short distances just as happy as can be to be on paper.

I consider (and determine based on the targets of those around me) myself to be a fairly accurate shooter. I am however, occasionally reminded that there are those out there who exceed my skill level.

On a recent trip to the range, I met a man who was a former competitor. His groups at all yardage were smaller than mine, not to an extreme, but enough to make me bummed out. But that's why I continue to practice. To improve my skills and not just blast away.

I do take and attempt to shoot lots of different guns (models, styles, configurations) in order to be able to pick up any gun and be capable of decent accuracy.

I do try to follow the "aim small, shoot small" as well as "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" schools of thought.

And hell, I have a lot of fun doing it. If you see a guy at the range grinning from ear to ear and visibly enjoying himself...it's probably me! The Cheshire Cat has nothing on me.



I hope I am never in a position to be forced to use a gun to defend my life or the lives of others. But I prefer to follow the Boy Scout motto...be prepared.

[JTROKS]

Younger new shooters tend to be more into getting the "What's In" equipment. There is a phletora of information out of YT and WWW in reference to guns, equipment and accessories. When I started to get serious in learning how to shoot I bought a revolver and a Buckmark and a 10/22. Prior to that purchase I had a Win 70 in 270, a MAC-11, a 380 and a 25ACP pistol.

I've talked to many younger shooters and have asked if they own a 22 pistol. Most of them don't have one and they don't care for one due to being a mouse round. If they did have one it has the super cool red dot sight on it. As I mentioned I shot USPSA Open division the longest of any discipline, but I started with an iron sighted GP100 for steel shooting and a comped 10mm with iron sights. In the early 90s I bought my first full pledge comped and red dot sight Caspian Hi-cap in 38 Super. Around 2002 I had a pile of parts I earned from prize tables enough to build 2 limited division guns. When I finally completed my Para/STI pseudo P16 I could not hit the A zone with regularity from 10 yards. This pistol had a 2.5 lb clean trigger, Bomar adjustable rear sight and a fiber optic front sight. The gun is fitted tight and it was reliable, but my groups were suffering. I thought it was the barrel, but when I tested it becnched with sandbags I can shoot 3" groups at 25 yards which is more than enough for USPSA. My problem was recoil management and my eyesight didn't agree too well with the iron sights. It took me months to learn how to shoot with iron sights. i still like shooting my comped guns, but I practice regularly with real pistols with iron sights.

[himurax13]

I would have to say that the predominate or preferred type of shooting I see on ranges today, does not involve much skill or discipline. The firearms are mostly semi-auto, plastic, striker fired type, chambered in 9mm and 40. The targets are very large and are shot at extremely close distance.

This is why I like USPSA Matches. They mix in long range, medium range, and point blank range targets within the course of fire. The addition of barricades and no shoot targets adds to the challenge.

Once you get past a certain level, I don't see the point of going to a static target range to shoot at static targets. Shooting at a relaxed pace and shooting while moving on the clock are two different things and it shows when people are trying to engage the long range targets. I prefer shooting while stressed and frankly don't see the point in practicing taking several seconds to break a shot.

It is absolutely amazing to see some folks blaze through a stage and hit everything while they are doing it.

[Carcassonne]

The next time you are at a public shooting range, take note of what equipment people have, and the type of shooting and skill level. It offers some interesting results. But, don't make the mistake of thinking you can profile handgun shooters and that all of them are incapable of shooting accurately. It's just their type of shooting they prefer.

In the past, before the graphic internet, I would run in to one person every few times that shot off his mouth more than his gun. Now it seems like every time I go to the range there are 2-3 people shooting off their mouth more than their guns. These are the people who go around telling you how good they are rather than proving it on a target.

Other observations. If the guy is there alone, and he has more than one gun, he can causally shoot good. If he has one gun and is there with several friends, he can't hit a thing.


.

[CGT80]

It does seem that people are a bit timid about shooting pistols at longer ranges. I got tired of the indoor ranges and found the SSA Steel Madness. I learned far more there, than I did at an indoor range. After the matches, I found myself practicing from as far back as I could get on the berms, with my 4" XD 40. After practicing at a longer distance, the shots required for the competitions seemed easier.

Years later, I tried 3gun and LESA. Some targets were at 1 yard and below your line of sight and others may be just a head shot or strip of a target at 10-20 yards, with no shoots surrounding the rest, so you had to shoot accurately and fast or get penalized on your score. At WEGC, I was able to shoot pistols out to 100+ yards. One day I needed to let my rifles cool and was bored, so I tried hitting the steel at 100 and 160 yards.

The light competition loads for my XD are not very good on smaller targets from 50-100 yards. They are great on a 6" dueling tree at 15 yards and I like to practice shooting those 6" plates very quickly. The Ruger MkIII Hunter 22 is actually very consistent on a 12" plate at 100 yards, but it is easy to screw up the shot. The 460 mag revolver is fun to shoot at the same target and the mid to full power loads are most accurate.

Rarely do I try to make small groups in paper while taking my time. I have more fun with shooting fast and trying for all A zone hits on cardboard and I like seeing when my shots are grouped well. Shooting Silhouette targets with a lever gun and peep sights is very fun, and pulling out a revolver to hit the same targets after the match is almost more fun. Sometimes I do better with the revolver than I do the lever gun.

Be aware if a grandfather-aged guy pulls out a 38 super 1911 and calmly gets ready at a Duelling Tree Massacre speed shooting competition. He just might know what he is doing...........as I found out. Older shooters may not move quite as fast as some younger guys, but they just may make up for it with smoothness and precision. The guy that beat me seemed pretty dang quick though.

[fritztkatt]

Of the 2 ranges I frequent, pala and iron sights, I see two very different people, with often no middle ground...

Mostly at pala, it's all people who are very safe, competent, and skilled shooters. Rarely is the other kind; which I see at iron sights, the bumbling idiot, blasting away.

I have no issues with someone blowing through 44 mag ammo, if they actually hit the target. Last time this guy was literally just pulling the trigger as fast as possible, making my shot gun look like a sniper rifle...

Often times, I will practice multiple styles in one range trip. I will slow-fire two handed, off hand, weak hand, 2-hand weak, and rapid fire fighting style. I will shoot as small as possible at 25 yards, and then come back to 7 or 10 and do double taps, then move to 15 and shoot at 5 or 6 small targets, as fast as possible. I try to train every way, so I can be an all-around shooter as opposed to only following one style, I also do the same with my rifle.

[JTROKS]

Be aware if a grandfather-aged guy pulls out a 38 super 1911 and calmly gets ready at a Duelling Tree Massacre speed shooting competition. He just might know what he is doing...........as I found out. Older shooters may not move quite as fast as some younger guys, but they just may make up for it with smoothness and precision. The guy that beat me seemed pretty dang quick though.

Was his name Tata E.?

[JonnyD]

I think the old "aim small, miss small" has a lot to do with the lack of proficiency in this new type "Call Of Duty Generation" shooters. These indoor ranges mostly just have silhouette targets and instead if aiming for a little dot, any hit inside the silhouette is "good enough".

I'm a volunteer RSO at a local range. The range is owned by the city (our club runs it for them) so the Parks & Rec department has a "no silhouette" rule in place (PC purposes). It's funny how quickly newcomers will tighten up their groups on the bullsye targets when they see the shooters to their left and right shooting tiny groups. Increases accuracy by way of public shaming/peer pressure.

I still get a few lost causes every now and then who are simply intent on sending good money downrange as fast as possible but what can you do.

I forgot to mention that we don't have rentals at our range so that cuts down on the dumbass factor quite a bit. 13 years I've worked as an RSO and I've only ever had to kick out one patron who I judged to be unsafe (despite my repeated talking to), and one kid who walked out on his own because I jumped all over his *** (he swept the entire line, including me, as he was uncasing his AR behind the line, then had the gall to bust out the "but it's not loaded" line).

I enjoy shooting at that range (all 2 times I have been there, I am a noob).
My biggest reason is that you all work hard to keep it safe.

Even at the indoor ranges, I cannot justify the silhouette targets. My feeling is: shoot at a 6" target with tight groups and you should have no trouble with an armed home invader.
Personally, like most other sane & logical folks, I would rather never need to use my gun for self defense, hence, why practice on a silhouette?

I prefer to go to any range early or on off days so there are less "call of duty" people around for my own safety. Your "sweeping the firing line guy" being my case in point.
Quite frankly, I notice a lot of new gun owners and "range selfie kids" have poor muzzle discipline; I'm glad the RSOs at the range are quick to get on people's ***es if they are not being safe. Thanks.

As a newer shooter, I have a lot of respect for old timers who are able to shoot nice small groups at greater distances. It will bring me great satisfaction to be able to bring my skills to that level. The old timers are great people to learn from, IMO.

Once I get better groups I plan to push my targets back farther for hand guns. Right now I can do about 4" at 7-10 yards with a Glock, About 3" with a 1911, and < 2" with my friend's .357 magnum.

The best I was able to do with my AR was 3.5" at 50 yards with an inexpensive 1X red dot optic and cheap Tulammo. This was after about 40 minutes of getting the gun sighted in while sitting in the hot sun, so I was probably getting fatigued. Next trip will bring better groups.
With my friend's AR and a better scope I was sub MOA, but a good scope made a big difference.

[stix213]

Depends on my mood, what gun I'm shooting, and if I'm bringing someone inexperienced along for the ride. If I bring my G17C (the handgun I'm most practiced with and my primary HD gun) and I'm by myself, then I'll usually push the target out and try to keep things tight. Most of my other handguns I just own for fun, don't shoot very often, and I wouldn't consider going for in a serious situation, so I'll usually just shoot them at 7-10 yards. While still trying to do good I don't take the results too seriously. Next time I pull those handguns out will probably be 6 months from then anyways and I'll have to get used to them all over again. I'm usually just shoot at something like zombie targets for fun rather than something easy to see results on anyways with anything but my HD handgun. The only other exception is my P238, which I really try for tight groupings even though I keep the target around just 10 yards out (Its a tiny gun, I'm happy with myself on that small a pistol keeping things tight at just 10 yards).

When I bring someone new out I'll normally just keep the target at 7 yards and I'm not shooting for groups, I'm there mostly to demonstrate how to safely handle and fire the weapon and help them have fun so they don't get scared off by firearms. Again I'll probably pick up zombie targets and congratulate them for just staying on paper. I don't even keep track of how I'm shooting in those cases. Both me and the new shooter will be shooting at the same points on the target taking turns.

YMMV

[Kyle1886]

Transitioning from revolver to pistol was somewhat awkward for me. It's been some time since I've shot my revolver. I doubt that my proficiency with that arm is near as good as to used to be.

As many years as I have been shooting, one thing that holds true for me anyway, is realizing that whatever discipline you favor, it is a perishable skill. "If you don't use it, you lose it" and I'm my own worst enemy in that regard.

Respectfully,
Kyle

[CGT80]

Was his name Tata E.?

Mike Dalton
He was one of the guys who founded Steel Challenge.............when I was working on getting my first year of life under my belt.

[JTROKS]

I remember that name. I started shooting USPSA in SoCal burning 1K rounds almost every week. Saturday and Sunday matches then shoot a Wednesday night indoor match. Those were the days.

[Sir Toast]

OP - Great post. I loved reading it and the changes you've seen over the years. I have seen exactly what you're posting about. I'd love to hear about other observations as well.

I just went to the range with the wife and all we had were revolvers with four point targets. We both like to shoot that way. Every shot counts. I was trying to get all 6 shots in a small target at 50 yards. TOUGH!

Again, great post OP. Thanks for sharing. You have a unique perspective over the past 40+ years.