Hollow points in ccw guns - yay or nay?

[AreWeNotMen?]

he said any attorney can make a case that the shooter (you) was out to kill someone and not just defend themselves.

That's idiotic and has zero basis in reality.

[JoshuaS]

You're also more likely to get sued if that ball point round you use goes straight through someone and hits an innocent bystander... always use hallow points

Hallow points? Are they blessed by a priest?


Sorry couldn't resist.

A few points.

1. MOST self defensive uses of a firearm, even most where the baddie gets shot, do not go to trial. I am not saying one should plan and not going to trial, but criminally it is very unlikely

2. Civil suit is more likely, but unlikely to prevail, especially if there is any "official determination" that it was self-defense. One has to show that there is a tort. But, presuming a person acts lawfully in self defense, then the act, as far as that goes, is privileged and he is not a tortfeasor. So it is highly unlikely that the issue of what mods you did, or what ammo you used would ever come up

3. Not only do cops use HP (and will officially defend it partially as a matter of safety for bystanders), virtually all ammo in the US sold or advertised for self defense is HP. So in the rare case it goes to trial, over an otherwise clear cut self defense case, the argument is not hard to blow out of the water

Now if it is not a clear cut case, then the substantial issues, whether in criminal or civil course, are going to center around other factors. It is highly unlikely this will be any prosecutor or plaintiff' lynch pin argument

[rejoinder]

When I took my ccw training, this subject came up and the instructor said it's our decision and how much risk we're willing to take. He, personally, does not use hp rounds, as he said any attorney can make a case that the shooter (you) was out to kill someone and not just defend themselves. At first, I took this and ran regular ball ammo, but now I've had discussions with other ccw holders and some think what difference does it make? We're going to have to defend ourselves in court anyways, so what's one more thing if we get out of a shoot alive?

get a new Instructor, one who knows more about guns and opines less about courtrooms

[Cali-Shooter]

Ball ammo for LTC handgun defensive use? Why limit yourself and restrict the stopping power of your firearm? Those dollars that you save not buying proper hollow points isn't worth short-changing your life over if s##t goes down and you have to actually fire in self-defense.

[Cali-Shooter]

When I took my ccw training, this subject came up and the instructor said it's our decision and how much risk we're willing to take. He, personally, does not use hp rounds, as he said any attorney can make a case that the shooter (you) was out to kill someone and not just defend themselves. At first, I took this and ran regular ball ammo, but now I've had discussions with other ccw holders and some think what difference does it make? We're going to have to defend ourselves in court anyways, so what's one more thing if we get out of a shoot alive?

Sounds like a lousy CCW instructor, was it this guy by any chance?



If someone were to try to sue you from being shot with a hollowpoint bullet saying that you were trying to kill them, would they not sue you for you shooting them with a FMJ bullet and say you were not trying to kill them?

Armed self-defense is a last resort for good reason, but if you have to resort that drastically, you want the best chances for your survival, because imminent threat and loss of life is certain without armed intervention, so that's why you use hollowpoints if you can help it. The legal mumbo jumbo comes afterwards, and you never shoot "to kill," you shoot to "stop the threat." Hollowpoints work best in that manner, because the stopping power is capable of incapacitating a human aggressor better and faster than FMJ or 'ball' ammo does, which in most cases just blows clean through and doesn't do significant 'hydrostatic shock' or immediate stopping power, unless it hits a vital organ or body system. Even hollowpoint ammo has this risk as well, failure to hit an aggressor in a vital region will only superficially wound them and they can continue their violence and might even seriously injure or kill you even after being shot!

[mike_in_ca]

When I took my ccw training, this subject came up and the instructor said it's our decision and how much risk we're willing to take. He, personally, does not use hp rounds, as he said any attorney can make a case that the shooter (you) was out to kill someone and not just defend themselves. At first, I took this and ran regular ball ammo, but now I've had discussions with other ccw holders and some think what difference does it make? We're going to have to defend ourselves in court anyways, so what's one more thing if we get out of a shoot alive?

Please....Who was this instructor??

[DFence]

Please....Who was this instructor??

No kidding. Please share

(Got a feeling it's a troll post)


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[Dirtbikindad393]

Really.. you think "critical defense" and "critical duty" sound like hyper names?

Not seeing that.. sorry

Now some do have crazy names.. but to me the above like like DEFENSE ammo and DUTY ammo as in what an officer my carry while on duty.

Now a round called the TERMINATOR or MAX CARNAGE would most likely be a bad idea.

You didn't read correctly I said "HE" said not I said. I don't believe that they are but that doesn't mean it wont come up in a trial if a shooting has to occur from my gun.

[dpop24]

Wait!? Say it ain't so - a CCW instructor that spreads FUD?!?! Mine told me that handguns acquired by SSE were illegal and could not be added to my CCW.

Basically, if you read it on the internet or hear it from a CCW instructor, IT MUST BE TRUE!

[Randy G.]

I guess I'd rather be prosecuted for shooting a bad guy trying to kill someone than be prosecuted for shooting a bad guy trying to kill someone and for killing a mother and her baby 20 yards behind him because of a through and through.

[grantar2]

I believe the ordinance applies to certain brands (Black Talons/SXT), not all hollowpoint ammunition.

Black Talon was discontinued in 2000, I don't think it's worth brining up.

[grantar2]

Use whatever your pistol cycles reliably. Done.
LEOs are required to carry ammo that the department dictates for it's defensive/offensive use.
We on the other hand can carry whatever we want. No requirements. (generally speaking)
If you are worried about what the DA will do after you discharge your pistol for any reason the type of ammo used will be your least worry.
Every "state certified expert" CCW instructor I have had to listen to has made stupid ignorant statements that were claimed as gospel. Grain of salt required.
I go and do it because I have to. Checking the box.

Remember your in California, your going to be sued on the civil side if anyone outside the treat in injured by your round. Misses, and rounds that pass through the person your trying to stop may cause that damage.

Hollow point is expensive, and ball is much cheaper and what most of us practice with an compete with, it's easy to leave in your mag. But if you can afford to load and carry hollow points you should. Chances are it will be more effective if you ever have to defend yourself. You are being responsible by doing the best you can to protect innocents from being harmed.

Sometimes you carry what you have the most of. To paraphrase the most interesting man in the world. I don't always carry new ammo, but when I do, I prefer to carry hollow points. "Shot responsibly"

[HPBrowningMK3]

[Trout_fear_me]

Using FMJ is probably the worst advice an instructor could give someone. HP hits the intended target, and usually stays within the target with little chance of collateral damage by exiting the target and hitting someone else.

[Decoligny]

I tell my students that it is up to them to research and choose what ammo they want to carry. I go through the whole "use what your IA uses", "the possibly issues of using your own reloads" and, most importantly, "some local laws prohibit mere POSSESSION of different types of ammunition". I try to cover both sides of each issue without bias. Ultimately, the final decision is up to each individual. Personally, I have no issues carrying my own HP reloads, any of my personal reloads or any quality factory ammo. However, while I can prove HPs are sporting rounds, I do not think it is worth risking the legal costs associated with possessing HPs in San Francisco. So, no HPs in The City!

Edit: Another concern is that certain firearms/magazines have been known to have issues with certain ammunition. So, don't just load up some HPs and expect them to work in your firearm. You need to run several boxes (minimum) of a particular ammo through a particular gun (using each mag you want to use) before you trust your life to it.

I for one do not carry my concealed firearm for "sporting purposes", as defending myself from grave bodily injury or death is not a sport, so sporting rounds are not even a consideration. The HP rounds I use are not ballistically identical to the HP rounds prohibited by SF, so IF I ever find myself through no fault of my own, in SF, I will be carrying my HP rounds.