Hollow points in ccw guns - yay or nay?

[jdben92883]

I like that your instructor said it's up to you. I hate that he associated more effective HD rounds with greater legal risk, which is completely unfounded. He's in a position to influence and thus should have kept his pie-hole closed about what he personally carries.

[River Bound]

You have a CCW for self defense so use a self defense round in your gun. You're going to go through hell anyways if you ever had to use your firearm so wht is the difference? Besides, round nose can penetrate all the way through and keep going, not likely with HP's.

[HonkingAntelope]

There is nothing wrong with using hollow-points as long it's not some ridiculously marketed crap like RIP ammo. As others mentioned, overpenetration with ball ammo is a major hazard in places like CA where most buildings have paper-thin walls.

[Creampuff]

No way would I load up with FMJ for a home defense gun. My goal is to stop a threat, not to put holes in every wall in my house.

You only need to state that you wanted to prevent a threat, no reason to say I want to "kill kill kill". All this to be stated in the presence of a lawyer of course.

[grantar2]

Hollow points are the best answer. There is a lot of discussion about stopping power but surprisingly that isn't why police carry them. If you go back and look at the documentation from the adoption by every major agency the reason for using hollow points are that they don't over penetrate the target. The very same reason you should use them if you can afford to buy them and practice with them. A ball round will go through the target in many places and may well end up going significantly beyond the threat into an innocent persons or structures. That was the primary reason police went to hollow points.

[Catch]

Ammoquest on youtube tests ball and hp outta 3" barrel.
Gold dots performed the best but wwb wasn't that bad either.

[FrankinCA]

That does not make sense. I use Gol Dots, that's what the SO carries locally.

Any round that over penetrates, is an issue. I would not use ball in any circumstance.

[FrankinCA]

I tell my students that it is up to them to research and choose what ammo they want to carry. I go through the whole "use what your IA uses", "the possibly issues of using your own reloads" and, most importantly, "some local laws prohibit mere POSSESSION of different types of ammunition". I try to cover both sides of each issue without bias. Ultimately, the final decision is up to each individual. Personally, I have no issues carrying my own HP reloads, any of my personal reloads or any quality factory ammo. However, while I can prove HPs are sporting rounds, I do not think it is worth risking the legal costs associated with possessing HPs in San Francisco. So, no HPs in The City!


before you trust your life to it.

I believe the ordinance applies to certain brands (Black Talons/SXT), not all hollowpoint ammunition.

[fighter4cage]

Its all Hollow Points for me !!

[caliberetta]

Check this thread on CCW specific Ammo - http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=995367

Lots of links to some very informative Videos on the performance of Defense ammo on CCW specific/Short Barreled firearms.

[CSACANNONEER]

I believe the ordinance applies to certain brands (Black Talons/SXT), not all hollowpoint ammunition.

Yea, it does name "Black Talon" but, it also encompasses other ammunition based on it's characteristics and/or how it is marketed. To me, it is not worth the possible legal costs associated with being arrested by a SFPD officer who is not clear on the law. In fact, while the ordinance only names Black Talon but goes on to say that the SFPD is responsible for determining what other ammunition is not allowed. Do you really want to be the test case?

[Dano3467]

What do LEO & FBI run ??? use same if your having a problem &SS covered...

[Creampuff]

I believe the ordinance applies to certain brands (Black Talons/SXT), not all hollowpoint ammunition.

That is correct. The original law had the intent of banning all HP in SF, because they were going to ban all ammunition of warfare. Until they realized HP are actually not ammunition of warfare

[Dirtbikindad393]

FUD...

Hornady Critical Defense in all of my EDC & HD weapons!!!

Not necessarily all the way FUD. Because it is the job of the prosecuting attorney to make a case that you were wrong. You don't get to decide how he or she goes about making that case so yes it could happen that the prosecutor tries to make a case that you were out to kill somebody.

As far as the ammo discussion hollow points/ball ammo if anybody reads some of the books by Massad Ayoob who is an attorney himself and one of the foremost expert witnesses in shooting cases in the country says he would and could and has made the case the HP was safer than FMJ ball ammo due to penetration of ball ammo. He also goes on to say that ammo with hyper names such as Critical defense, Critical duty, Zombie killer, extreme duty or anything along that line could be viewed and has been viewed by jurors, on the mention by a prosecutor, that you were looking to cause extreme damage and or looking to kill by using ammo with those types of names.

For that reason I would find out what ammo your local PD uses and use the same. Winchester law enforcement ammo is very popular with many PD's. While I want to use Hornady critical duty or critical defense, I use the same ammo used by a dept close to me. If its good enough for them in the line of duty it is certainly good enough for me the CCW carrier.

Google Massad Ayoob and read one book of his or look up some articles that he writes it will make you think about how you carry and where and what ammo you use. The man dissects everything and pulls from years of knowledge in the courtroom and as a shooter himself.

Just one of many interesting reads from him http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/...rmed-and-ready

A best read for any ccw carrier or armed homeowner defending his castle. http://www.gundigeststore.com/deadly...d?ESgdar101414

[Waking Heavy]

Ayoob is not an attorney. As for the HP v FMJ argument I'm astonished any CCW instructor would make such a statement. It shows extreme ignorance.