On Target training question......

[TurboChrisB]

So I looked at all three options for training provided on the info sheet that the OCSD gave me. It seems that everyone is mostly booked through the end of the year. The exception is that when I called On Target.........they gave me two numbers. One for TJ (booked up till Jan) and one for Mike Mueller.

So I called Mike and he does classes there at On Target. Same prices aprox...$225.00 up to three guns. And openings seemingly every weekend. So I called him yesterday to reserve a spot for this weekend....and in talking asked about how many hours of training. He stated it was 8-12 Sat and Sun and then a yet to be determined third day during the week. Wed or Thursday.

I was thinking about it this morning....and recalled talk of it needing to be 16 hours or "not to exceed 16 hours"

But is this right? Anyone taken training through him? Even if it's 3 4 hour sessions it's only 12 hours total.

I figured I'd ask here before calling him back....see if anyone else has used him.

He also stated only 50 rounds per gun..Not the 200 / 75 / 75 like I've seen others mention. Seems like a "lite" class but I want to make sure it satisfys the OCSD for my CCW.

[Trout_fear_me]

I don't have any experience with him as I went to FTA. But, I have heard of trainers that do not provide 16 hours of training at that range. Don't know if he is the one or not.

Here's the issue if that is the case. If you have a legal shooting and you did things right, you will likely not be charged criminally. But, when it comes to the civil trial (AKA the family is suing your butt) be sure that they will bring up the fact that you were not "properly" trained.

Will it sway the jury... who knows. But, I'll say this, I want all of my ducks in a row if something like that would happen.

YMMV.

[Hanse Davion]

The posted ocsd policy does not specifically require a full 16 hours, and instead copies and pastes for the most part the language of the statute. However, there are other sections in the policy that specify what the training should entail. See- http://ocsd.org/civicax/filebank/blo...x?BlobID=24223

[Roering]

As of August 26th Mike is no longer an "approved trainer" i.e. not on the list.

I would clarify with the OCSD before you take the class.

[TurboChrisB]

I get your point...of course keep in mind that I AM picking from the three OCSD approved choices....so while they "could" claim the others offered more....they can't say that one offered not enough....as it satisfies the OCSD requirements.

I don't have any experience with him as I went to FTA. But, I have heard of trainers that do not provide 16 hours of training at that range. Don't know if he is the one or not.

Here's the issue if that is the case. If you have a legal shooting and you did things right, you will likely not be charged criminally. But, when it comes to the civil trial (AKA the family is suing your butt) be sure that they will bring up the fact that you were not "properly" trained.

Will it sway the jury... who knows. But, I'll say this, I want all of my ducks in a row if something like that would happen.

YMMV.

[JDW67]

TJ seems to be the only trainer who actually trains for 16 hours. The training I took and a few other people I've talked to with other trainers is significantly lower than 16 hours.

[Trout_fear_me]

I get your point...of course keep in mind that I AM picking from the three OCSD approved choices....so while they "could" claim the others offered more....they can't say that one offered not enough....as it satisfies the OCSD requirements.

Not exactly correct. They will subpena the records through discovery and find out that he did not meet the OCSD standard of 16 hours.

[Trout_fear_me]

TJ seems to be the only trainer who actually trains for 16 hours. The training I took and a few other people I've talked to with other trainers is significantly lower than 16 hours.

That's good. FTA also requires 16 hours of training as well.

[TheWoodCrafter]

TJ seems to be the only trainer who actually trains for 16 hours. The training I took and a few other people I've talked to with other trainers is significantly lower than 16 hours.

FTA gives a full 16 hours.
I was hoping to be able to leave early if the course material was covered quickly but they made us stay a full 8 hours the first day for class room and it took 8 hour the last day between range work the finishing up in the class room for the certificate.

[autoduel]

I spoke with someone who took Mike Mueller's class.
Lets Just say his training and qualification follows Greg Block's curriculum ........ from 6 months ago.
Maybe even a step down, I don't think you even fire the 72 rounds during qual.

[CWM4A1]

From my understanding, while he's not listed specific by name, Mike Muller's class is still covered under On-Target's umbrella.

Before the change Gregg (owner), TJ and Mike are listed by name, not sure why is the change but this may have something to do with our effort to add additional instructor (and other venue as well). Just my guess, it may be OCSD's intention to shorten the list after additional instructors are approved, though they have not yet release the approval. We'll see.

[TurboChrisB]

While I haven't decided yet where I will go.... I did call Mueller again and he clarified....I guess it's Sat, Sun and Wed for 4 hours each....but on Sun he's assigning "homework" meaning 4 hours of study/hands on homework that is 4 hours worth and you're tested on it on the final, 3rd day. Whatever it is....I guess it in the end it"does" satisfy the 16 hour mandated amount of time. And it's signed off by On Target.

Not exactly correct. They will subpena the records through discovery and find out that he did not meet the OCSD standard of 16 hours.

[Trout_fear_me]

While I haven't decided yet where I will go.... I did call Mueller again and he clarified....I guess it's Sat, Sun and Wed for 4 hours each....but on Sun he's assigning "homework" meaning 4 hours of study/hands on homework that is 4 hours worth and you're tested on it on the final, 3rd day. Whatever it is....I guess it in the end it"does" satisfy the 16 hour mandated amount of time. And it's signed off by On Target.

Good to know. IMHO, you should document the training you do. That way you can defend yourself if you are involved in a legal shooting.

[tkosaka]

I took both TJ and Mike's classes and they have a VERY different teaching style. The instructor you decide to take, I would base it on your experience. If you are familiar with your weapon and just want to get the class out of the way, then take Mike's class. If you want to learn to shoot, take TJ's class.

In Mike's class, you literally go there, listen to him speak, do Q&A's the shoot from the lane. I went through about 70 rounds with the primary, then about 20 on the 2nd and 3rd guns. Scary thing is, I saw people that did not know how to operate their weapons shooting in the class, hitting the ceiling, etc that were getting their CCW's. He does NOT teach you how to shoot. Also, you take the course on Saturday and Sunday, then have to show up on like a Wed after to take the test and turn in your "homework" which he never looks at, or collects.

With TJ's class, it is the NRA's Personal Protection Outside the Home (PPOH) course. If you haven't taken the NRA's Basic Handgun and Personal Protection Inside (PPIH) the Home courses, those are great courses that I feel is worth the money. I've taken many NRA courses, so the PPOH aka CCW course, I was very aware of the type of instruction I was going to receive. TJ follow the PPOH book for the classroom portion and even has an OC Sheriff come in for Q&A's which I thought was very helpful.

The major difference between Mike and TJ, is that with TJ's class, you go through a few hundred rounds, doing lots concealed holster draw & shooting, as well as run & gun which is always fun since it's not every day that you can go to the range and do unless you do the IDPA/USPSA competitions. Also, the biggest bonus I thought was that TJ has 3-4 additional instructors that comes out to help you through the course and teach you if you're doing something right or wrong, and how to correct.

So if you're looking to improve your shooting, go with TJ, if you just want to get the class out of the way to get your CCW, go with Mike. My 2-cents, is that IF I was in a shooting incident, I would want my attorney to show in court to the jury that I took a very thorough course with TJ.

[grantar2]

While I haven't decided yet where I will go.... I did call Mueller again and he clarified....I guess it's Sat, Sun and Wed for 4 hours each....but on Sun he's assigning "homework" meaning 4 hours of study/hands on homework that is 4 hours worth and you're tested on it on the final, 3rd day. Whatever it is....I guess it in the end it"does" satisfy the 16 hour mandated amount of time. And it's signed off by On Target.

Turbo, after all the work it takes to get a CCW, don't screw up on the training. This has come up in other states, and in those cases both the instructor and students were charged. Why risk it.

You didn't say. Have you gotten your approval letter. They gave all of us the training list when we interviewed, but your not really good to go until you have the preliminary go. Do you have that? Go over to the tread on this subject, it's been going on for months and all the details and arguments are there.