What is the HARDEST course of fire for CCW qualification?

[Snoopy47]

I'm curious. I tried looking it up, and can't really find challenging courses of fire. A guy at my range said one agency had an insane one at the training course he was last at, but can't recall which agency it was (somewhere in Northern California).

Does anyone have an idea which agency that might be?

Anyway..................... I'm of the theory the MOST EFFECTIVE WAY to limit conceal carry licenses is to require an INSAINE course of fire. I presume the local LEO's would have to meet that standard too (otherwise the standard wouldn't hold up in court), but they would be using DUTY SIZE pistols from OWB duty holsters, but I guess it would also apply to their off duty qualifications too, so there would be limitations.

I presume any one here can just crunch through the paper work, wait out the time, and pay the fees, and check all the in class training and get a CCW, but actual competitive level pistol proficiency is a whole new level very VERY few bother to obtain (oh don't get me wrong, anyone can do it, it's not the Olympics, but it does take a focused effort).

OK, that all said..................

Is there a hard CCW qual folks find at the least "uh oh, I better practice".

Is there an agency where the CCW qual is their local agency standard for LEO's.

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I could totally see a local IA make the requirement on par with their SWAT officers who use duty size optic set up pistols from fast access holsters, and then say to all the CCW applicant's, OK you have to match that with your Micro Pistol from concealment, and include a reload.

[Snoopy47]

OK, I'll just keep adding to this thread,

Santa Cruz County:
The TIME and set up might challenge folks.

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[SG29736]

Assuming officers and CCW holders had to pass the same shooting test the difference would be what kind of effort they make to get both groups qualified. One attempt for CCW shooters and virtually unlimited attempts allowed for law enforcement for example.

[Snoopy47]

Assuming officers and CCW holders had to pass the same shooting test the difference would be what kind of effort they make to get both groups qualified. One attempt for CCW shooters and virtually unlimited attempts allowed for law enforcement for example.

Exactly...............

However many attempts the approved vendor for CCW quals would let you for the amount you pay them.

I've learned the standards are pretty loose.

No one is stepping to the line under competitive shooting standards. It's more or less a bunch of folks step to the line with the same course of fire standard and the approved training vendor checks to see the standard was met, and then moves onto the next batch ASAP. It's a cash cow. Lots of folks to push through and I'm sure they are happy to take your money for more attempts.

Same with LEO agencies. How many times is the officer allowed to be on the clock and get paid to burn ammo only to keep failing. I'm sure at some point someone will get put behind a desk.

Both will have to practice on their own time to reach a challenging standard.

[SG29736]

Exactly...............

However many attempts the approved vendor for CCW quals would let you for the amount you pay them.

I've learned the standards are pretty loose.

No one is stepping to the line under competitive shooting standards. It's more or less a bunch of folks step to the line with the same course of fire standard and the approved training vendor checks to see the standard was met, and then moves onto the next batch ASAP. It's a cash cow. Lots of folks to push through and I'm sure they are happy to take your money for more attempts.

Same with LEO agencies. How many times is the officer allowed to be on the clock and get paid to burn ammo only to keep failing. I'm sure at some point someone will get put behind a desk.

Both will have to practice on their own time to reach a challenging standard.

My renewal is coming up. It's 20 rounds per gun at a silhouette target from about 7 yards. A line of 5 or 6 shooters at a time. Those with one gun are first and lastly the people shooting 4 or 5 guns. Some of the first shooters do not have an easy time, it's their first gun. The instructor will go up to the target to count the hits. Later it's obvious the more experienced shooters have them all in.
With LEO's ultimately it's pretty difficult to fail. The last straggler after everyone else leaves will usually come back "qualified".

[M1A Rifleman]

Alameda County requires 10 rounds at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 yards from an OWB holster at varying times that increase with distance. The time includes mag changes at each distance were you fire 5 rounds, change mag and fire your last five under time. 50 rounds total per gun to qualify.

At 25 yards you have 10 rounds and a mag change in 20 seconds,

At all distance, all rounds outside the silhouette 7 ring are misses. At 25 yards, this would be challenging for some shooters in the CCW class where their target at 10 yards looked like a shotgun blast.

[Snoopy47]

Alameda County requires 10 rounds at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 yards from an OWB holster at varying times that increase with distance. The time includes mag changes at each distance were you fire 5 rounds, change mag and fire your last five under time. 50 rounds total per gun to qualify.

At 25 yards you have 10 rounds and a mag change in 20 seconds,

At all distance, all rounds outside the silhouette 7 ring are misses. At 25 yards, this would be challenging for some shooters in the CCW class where their target at 10 yards looked like a shotgun blast.

That must be the one.

Never heard of going out to 25 yards before.

Not CCW BUT......................

The NRA Bullseye competition match stage at 25 yards are 5 rounds in 10 seconds, then a pause, reset of the targets and another 5 rounds at 10 seconds, for a total of 10 rounds and 20 seconds on the clock. So the pace of fire is the same, but one has the benefit of a competition gun (usually a high precision all steel full size gun with optimized sights with a perfect load for the gun and distance), AND the gun is already held at the target fully extended read to fire once the clock starts and targets face/turn. Granted, the X ring is the size of a quarter, and precision is EXTREME, but they are not drawing from a holster, nor reloading under the clock. Now......... yes, the NRA match is ONE HAND only.

I'm just focusing on distance, and rate of fire and time with this comment.

It is interesting the shooting qual for a CCW is nearly bullseye standards.

I do wonder. Is the Alameda CCW standard the same, higher or lower than their patrol deputies standard?

Clearly though............. Don'y dilly dally, draw, present, front sight focus, and trigger pull.......... Not a big deal, but fundamentals cannot be ignored.

[M1A Rifleman]

That must be the one.

Never heard of going out to 25 yards before.

Not CCW BUT......................

The NRA Bullseye competition match stage at 25 yards are 5 rounds in 10 seconds, then a pause, reset of the targets and another 5 rounds at 10 seconds, for a total of 10 rounds and 20 seconds on the clock. So the pace of fire is the same, but one has the benefit of a competition gun (usually a high precision all steel full size gun with optimized sights with a perfect load for the gun and distance), AND the gun is already held at the target fully extended read to fire once the clock starts and targets face/turn. Granted, the X ring is the size of a quarter, and precision is EXTREME, but they are not drawing from a holster, nor reloading under the clock. Now......... yes, the NRA match is ONE HAND only.

I'm just focusing on distance, and rate of fire and time with this comment.

It is interesting the shooting qual for a CCW is nearly bullseye standards.

I do wonder. Is the Alameda CCW standard the same, higher or lower than their patrol deputies standard?

Clearly though............. Don'y dilly dally, draw, present, front sight focus, and trigger pull.......... Not a big deal, but fundamentals cannot be ignored.

I believe it is the same for deputies.

There is plenty of time to pass if you know your stuff, even with malfunctions.

Those that shoot sloppy will have low scores or not pass. The RO spends about 8 hours over two days on shooting practice to help those that are fundamentally challenged to shooting trying to help them pass.

Alameda had the most challenging course of fire out of the other counties the RO was handling.

[Scotty]

Sac uses the BSIS cof. I shot USPSA and IDPA for twenty years, so it's not hard for me. I've shot it cold for the last 3 renewals. Like my range bag still has stuff from the previous qualifications. Other things in life has taken priority over shooting. So literally the only time I've done any shooting is during the qualification. Yet, I'm made the example for the class on how you should be shooting. The last time a couple guys came close to being me, but I'm shooting subcompact guns, while they were using full-size guns with red dot sights.

The sad part is there are people that barely pass on a renewal. Their target looks worse than what a shotgun would do with bird shot with a cylinder choke at the same distance.

[SDM44]

For my WCPD CCW qualifiation, I only had to do 10 shots from 3 yards, 10 shots from 7 yards, and 10 shots from 10 yards (for each gun I'm qualifying with), and show that I could load & unload each gun. There was no time limit so you could take your time aiming and shooting. Had to be at least 70% or better of keeping it inside the black area of the B27 target.... which is a huge area at those distances. All 30 of my shots were in the 10 ring with a tight group with about a 1 sec pause between each shot.

Really the only "difficult" part was to show the instructor that I could also load the mag while keeping my situational awareness, as in looking around at my surroundings while grabbing loose rounds and loading them into my mag by hand. This was more of his requirement, and it was easy to do, but more of a waste of time since I came prepared with my mags already loaded and I keep a Uplula in my bag. He just wanted to make sure people knew how to load their mags by hand if needed.

[JDoe]

Alameda County requires 10 rounds at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 yards from an OWB holster at varying times that increase with distance. The time includes mag changes at each distance were you fire 5 rounds, change mag and fire your last five under time. 50 rounds total per gun to qualify.

At 25 yards you have 10 rounds and a mag change in 20 seconds,

At all distance, all rounds outside the silhouette 7 ring are misses. At 25 yards, this would be challenging for some shooters in the CCW class where their target at 10 yards looked like a shotgun blast.

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I just did my qualifications for my CCW renewal and there was a guy qualifying for the Alameda County CCW renewal. He literally shot the center out of the target Making a whole about 4 1/2 inches in diameter at the center of the target. And that included qualifying with three guns, including a hammerless revolver. One of the guns he was shooting was a Sig P365. That thing looks like it might have a pretty good trigger and is something I want to look at in the LGS.

[axhoaxho]

Alameda County requires 10 rounds at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 yards from an OWB holster at varying times that increase with distance. The time includes mag changes at each distance were you fire 5 rounds, change mag and fire your last five under time. 50 rounds total per gun to qualify.

At 25 yards you have 10 rounds and a mag change in 20 seconds,

At all distance, all rounds outside the silhouette 7 ring are misses. At 25 yards, this would be challenging for some shooters in the CCW class where their target at 10 yards looked like a shotgun blast.

Yes, I did it (at 25 yards) with my little G26 and iron sights.

I did pass, but I admit that I was a little worry before the qualification.

[Rickybillegas]

Why do we want to limit CCW licenses? 29 states do not have any qualifications at all.

[TTT]

MV COF.jpg

This is the course of fire for the first three guns I put on my Mountain View permit. Later it was changed to something more typical. The three shots, swap hands thing was something I'd never done before, I had to practice it a bit at home before the qualification.

[Snoopy47]

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One of the guns he was shooting was a Sig P365. That thing looks like it might have a pretty good trigger and is something I want to look at in the LGS.

Yes, I have a P365 as well. The trigger is the best out of the box I have with the exception of my 1911's (to include Les Baers). I'll have my P365 on my CCW at next renewal.