CCW paper copy

[L84CABO]

Your IA makes policies for it's county and it's officers ONLY.

Even if your IA says you don't need the paper copy, that doesn't mean CHP, and/or any other police/sheriff department is going to go along with it if they pull you over. And it doesn't mean that all stores will go along with it either.

The official LEGAL license is the paper copy. Fold the thing up and shove it in your wallet. Don't waste time getting it laminated and trying to somehow make the monster fit. Fold and shove. It only has to last two years before you do this nonsense again. And if by some chance your wallet goes swimming you send it through the wash, just call the sheriff's office and ask them for a new one.

SDCGO likely can't do anything about this because it's a state legislature and/or CA DOJ decision. And they're not about to do anything that will make things easier on carriers.

[riderr]

Your IA makes policies for it's county and it's officers ONLY.

Even if your IA says you don't need the paper copy, that doesn't mean CHP, and/or any other police/sheriff department is going to go along with it if they pull you over. And it doesn't mean that all stores will go along with it either.
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If IA doesn't have such a provision, you don't have to present the permit. It doesn't matter what LEO from another department may expect, of what the other department requires. You only abide the the state law and the IA provisions.

[L84CABO]

If IA doesn't have such a provision, you don't have to present the permit. It doesn't matter what LEO from another department may expect, of what the other department requires. You only abide the the state law and the IA provisions.

Yea. Unless you shoot somebody. Or a cop pulls you over for say, speeding, and figures out you're a permit holder...like when the information comes up when he runs your plate...and then he asks you if you're carrying...and I'm going to assume you aren't dumb enough to lie to him in that moment...so you say yes, and then he asks for your permit. There are a number of different ways you may need to show your permit out in the wild.

[riderr]

Yea. Unless you shoot somebody.

You simply make the statement you have a license to carry from such and such agency. This is verifiable info.

Or a cop pulls you over for say, speeding, and figures out you're a permit holder...like when the information comes up when he runs your plate...and then he asks you if you're carrying...and I'm going to assume you aren't dumb enough to lie to him in that moment...so you say yes, and then he asks for your permit.

If he knows I have a valid permit, why would he need the paper/card? Also, if your IA doesn't require you to have it, why would you carry it? You don't have your passport in your pocket every day, right?

There are a number of different ways you may need to show your permit out in the wild.

Again, the only reason I need to show it, if it's the provision from the issuing IA. If they don't require it, why would I be compelled to show it? I seriously doubt an average cop would be able to recognize all 58 different permits from different counties, plus municipalities.

[Calbix]

You must follow the directions of your Issuing Agency (IA). As already posted, every IA has an opinion of its own, and is sure that its opinion is the Real Way.

State law does not even require you to carry any CCW doc, though that seems a poor choice.

As of Jan 1st, 2024, state law will require possession of the license while carrying.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[bergmen]

I treat it no different than my drivers license, ALWAYS in possession at all times.

Dan

[michigander]

Your IA makes policies for it's county and it's officers ONLY.

Even if your IA says you don't need the paper copy, that doesn't mean CHP, and/or any other police/sheriff department is going to go along with it if they pull you over. And it doesn't mean that all stores will go along with it either.

The official LEGAL license is the paper copy. Fold the thing up and shove it in your wallet. Don't waste time getting it laminated and trying to somehow make the monster fit. Fold and shove. It only has to last two years before you do this nonsense again. And if by some chance your wallet goes swimming you send it through the wash, just call the sheriff's office and ask them for a new one.

SDCGO likely can't do anything about this because it's a state legislature and/or CA DOJ decision. And they're not about to do anything that will make things easier on carriers.

I did shove it in my wallet and it got destroyed, and according to SDSO, I lost my right to carry until I got a new paper copy. That took a couple weeks and $20 for it to come in the mail. And my fault for not having my FSC present, but it also affected my ability to buy a gun.

SDCGO can at least put pressure on SDSO to follow what other sheriffs are doing.

[bergmen]

I did shove it in my wallet and it got destroyed, and according to SDSO, I lost my right to carry until I got a new paper copy. That took a couple weeks and $20 for it to come in the mail. And my fault for not having my FSC present, but it also affected my ability to buy a gun.

SDCGO can at least put pressure on SDSO to follow what other sheriffs are doing.

Our IA recommends making a copy of the original and having it laminated so it doesn't get damaged in the wallet.

I have done that the last few times after I get my renewal, Staples does a good job laminating it (last time they did it for no charge for me). Original goes in the file cabinet.

Prior to lamination, I trim to the edges and fold it in half. After lamination it is about the same size as a credit card.

Dan

[RMartinez13]

My IA gave me a actual card like a credit card , has my photo , what guns I carry and other info. I never got a paper copy or permit.

[broadside]

PC 26175(a)(3)(B)

The Attorney General shall approve the use of licenses issued by local agencies that contain all the information required in subdivision (i), including a recent photograph of the applicant, and are deemed to be in substantial compliance with standards developed by the committee described in subparagraph (C), if developed, as they relate to the physical dimensions and general appearance of the licenses. The Attorney General shall retain exemplars of approved licenses and shall maintain a list of agencies issuing local licenses. Approved licenses may be used as indicia of proof of licensure under this chapter in lieu of the uniform license developed by the Attorney General.

So if your license has the pertinent info it is legal in CA and you don't need the paper copy it seems like. If they shall approve local licenses then if they have the info in (i) they are good everywhere in the state whether or not the state has the samples. It even only requires "substantial compliance" not absolute adherence to a design

PC 26175(a)(3)(B)

Any license issued upon the application shall set forth the licensee?s name, occupation, residence and business address, the licensee?s age, height, weight, color of eyes and hair, and the reason for desiring a license to carry the weapon, and shall, in addition, contain a description of the weapon or weapons authorized to be carried, giving the name of the manufacturer, the serial number, and the caliber. The license issued to the licensee may be laminated.

The business address/occupation does not apply for most folks since they are not valid during employment. And now reason for carry is not required.

[Dvrjon]

You simply make the statement you have a license to carry from such and such agency. This is verifiable info.

If he knows I have a valid permit, why would he need the paper/card? Also, if your IA doesn't require you to have it, why would you carry it? You don't have your passport in your pocket every day, right?

Again, the only reason I need to show it, if it's the provision from the issuing IA. If they don't require it, why would I be compelled to show it? I seriously doubt an average cop would be able to recognize all 58 different permits from different counties, plus municipalities.

First, the last statement. There is no need to recognize a diverse set of IA ID cards. The Standard License is a State form (FD 4501) and is recognizable statewide. There are only a few counties which issue the CCW ID, and they all acknowledge it is an ID and not the license because none have been approved by the AG.

Second, to the issue of why carry the real license. Many times, folks forget what they agreed to as conditions of issuance when applying for the license (Page 5, Section 4):




If you are stopped and cannot show a license, the LEO has no duty to hunt down your credentials. As far as they are concerned you are carrying concealed and loaded without a permit. That can make it a long day (or night).

[Dvrjon]

PC 26175(a)(3)(B)

The Attorney General shall approve the use of licenses issued by local agencies that contain all the information required in subdivision (i), including a recent photograph of the applicant, and are deemed to be in substantial compliance with standards developed by the committee described in subparagraph (C), if developed, as they relate to the physical dimensions and general appearance of the licenses. The Attorney General shall retain exemplars of approved licenses and shall maintain a list of agencies issuing local licenses. Approved licenses may be used as indicia of proof of licensure under this chapter in lieu of the uniform license developed by the Attorney General.

So if your license has the pertinent info it is legal in CA and you don't need the paper copy it seems like. If they shall approve local licenses then if they have the info in (i) they are good everywhere in the state whether or not the state has the samples. It even only requires "substantial compliance" not absolute adherence to a design

Regrettably, the AG has never developed or set the standards for the local agency card, so no IA “license” has been approved. Even if they were approved, the law states they would be indicia of licensure in lieu of the uniform license.

[broadside]

Regrettably, the AG has never developed or set the standards for the local agency card, so no IA ?license? has been approved. Even if they were approved, the law states they would be indicia of licensure in lieu of the uniform license.

But the AG shall approve the local version if

1) it has the pertinent info
2) it has the physical characteristics defined by the committee, if developed

so if there is no committee and no physical requirements defined, then the second part of that requirement does not apply. The sentence reads condition #1 and condition #2, if developed. No condition #2 exists so only #1 applies.

The "if developed" part only applies to the unset physical characteristics as the items in #1 (identifiers and photo) are defined in the PC already

Unless there is some weird lawyer parsing here that I am missing.

If the AG shall approve anything meeting condition #1 and my plastic copy meets #1 the it is approved by default in the world of logic and sanity. I know this is CA and neither of those apply here but still

My IA never gave me a paper copy, they retain all of them. I doubt that AG, being as anti-gun as he is, is unaware that so many IAs are not issuing the paper versions along with the plastic ones, and I am not sure why the IAs would spend the time and resources issuing plastic cards if only the paper ones mattered.

[Dvrjon]

If the AG shall approve anything meeting condition #1 and my plastic copy meets #1 the it is approved by default in the world of logic and sanity. I know this is CA and neither of those apply here but still.

There is no default approval in the text. It requires a definitive act by the AG (approval). Were it the Legislature's intent to allow local products to be default approved by simply meeting minimal design standards, the text would read words to the effect that: [t]The use of licenses issued by local agencies that contain all the information required in subdivision (i), including a recent photograph of the applicant, and are deemed to be in substantial compliance with standards developed by the committee described in subparagraph (C), if developed, as they relate to the physical dimensions and general appearance of the licenses are approved. But they did not do that.

My IA never gave me a paper copy, they retain all of them. So, your IA issues and retains the FD 4501, and you get an ID Card. I doubt that AG, being as anti-gun as he is, is unaware that so many IAs are not issuing the paper versions along with the plastic ones, and I am not sure why the IAs would spend the time and resources issuing plastic cards if only the paper ones mattered.

The AG does not care what the locals are doing. The AG cares about what the AG has to do. This is a task which has been ignored for a bunch of years because the statute requires the AG to form a committee of locals to develop and approve the design. This has not happened because it raises a stack of conflicting problems. For the AG, as long as the FD 4501 is issued and reported to the AG they are happy and do not have to deal with a committee*. If problem arises, it is the IA and licensee problem.

The part of the "AG shall approve" is the problem. The AG has not approved any local license indicia, and THAT is what the statute requires. Examples substantiating this include:

Orange County Sheriff CCW Policy March 2023, Page 6, Section 218.6.

218.6 ISSUED CONCEALED WEAPON LICENSE
In the event a license to carry a concealed weapon is issued by the Sheriff, the following shall apply:
[]
3. The license shall be laminated, bearing a photograph of the licensee with the expiration date, type of weapon, restrictions, and other pertinent information clearly visible.
(a) Each license shall be numbered and clearly identify the licensee.
(b) All licenses shall be subject to inspection by the Sheriff or any law enforcement officer.

One does not laminate a credit card indicia. There is no mention within the policy of a credit card indicia, yet it is issued. Had it been approved by the AG it would have been included.

Ventura County Sheriff CCW Policy, July 2023, Page 4, Section 3. APPLICATION PROCESS, (c)iii.

iii. The VCSO will also issue a CCW ID hard card as an additional identification for the licensee. The licensee is required to carry either the license or ID card on their person at all times when they are carrying an approved concealed firearm. The applicant shall retain both the paper state license and the CCW ID hard card.

These are two of the largest issuers (and early issuers) of the local CCW indicia card. If anyone was going to get the AG to approve their cards, these two would have. But they have not.

*The need for a fix is obvious, and the Legislature recognized the conflicts and delays in herding the cats to develop a standard license and wrote in a fix to SB 2. The AG has unilateral control.

If the committee does not issue a design standard by 60 days after the effective date of the act that added subparagraph (B) of paragraph (1), the Attorney General has the sole authority to set the design standard for licenses issued by local agencies that may be used as indicia of proof of licensure throughout the state, provided that the design standard meets the requirements of subparagraph (B).

After the initial design standard is issued, if one of the committee?s members concludes that further revisions are necessary, that member shall notify the other members of the committee, and the committee shall revise the design standard within three months of the notification. If the committee fails to release a design standard within that time, the Attorney General has the sole authority to revise the design standard for licenses issued by local agencies that may be used as indicia of proof of licensure throughout the state.

By March 1, 2024, you will see action by the AG on this. But until then, all you are carrying is a local ID card.

[CSACANNONEER]

The paper one is the actual state LTC. Plastic cards are an extra that many IAs issue. Some IAs retain the actual LTC and only give out hard cards that indicate you have a state LTC somewhere (maybe at the IA?).