Optics for a carry gun

[Doheny]

[Brother_Hesekiel]

I had a Romeo zero on my p365 but decided to stick with irons (I shoot USPSA with irons). Red dots certainly excel at distance accuracy, transition speed, and sight acquisition speed if initial presentation is good. That said, the first two of these advantages are less beneficial in a ccw context and I do think have to be weighed against the lower reliability of a red dot. Not just speaking reliability of the dot functioning, but also having the appropriate brightness level through the day, and most importantly reliability of getting a sight acquisition if your draw isn't perfect.

Given ccw dgu distances are often within 3 yards, and may include a less than perfect draw due to a variety of factors (off hand pushing away a person, etc), there is a reliability advantage for irons in terms of being able to get a sight picture. A good example of this is weak hand only strings for uspsa. I've found it sometimes unreliable getting the dot when having to transition to weak hand only vs irons. Normal draws with red dots I'm faster, but under adverse conditions or awkward angles (low port) there sometimes is a risk of losing the dot

Also, because you can get a sense of the front sight even with off alignment, it might be useful if you're looking to break a shot earlier even if the sights aren't perfectly aligned (for close distances), vs irons where the dot won't appear unless close to good alignment.

Finally, I do find that red dots can print slightly for appendix carry, although it's not significant and often not noticeable

I'm with you 100%.
I shoot a Sig P320 X5 Legion with Sig 3 Romeo Max (6MOA) in IDPA Carry Optics, and while it's easier to see when the presentation is good, I've once had to change the battery before a match as the damn thing didn't want to wake up. Looking for the dot under duress is much more difficult than lining up the sights, and, most importantly, self-defense situations should for the most part be within 5 or 7 yards, so a dot doesn't really help. It's one more variable and source of potential failure.

I now carry a standard P365 as my primary EDC, and I will not put a dot on it.

[whan]

I haven't seen this problem yet so maybe you're doing something differently than most? Given that you'd want your shoulders squared up to the target even though you're moving sideways or obliquely to it, I think your draw and presentation should remain consistent.

My view on this is that in many CCW type scenarios, you might not get a chance to get your shoulders squared up to your target, or to even draw standing up. Imagine a scenario where you're seated in a car, and have to draw and fire out of the driver's window. Or in my example in a previous post, if your strong hand is disabled and you have to transfer to weak hand only - are you confident in being able to find the dot?

A caveat that I'm more of an irons shooter (USPSA A class SS), but have a decent amount of time behind a CO gun as well. From an index perspective I can draw with my eyes closed and have the dot on target. Red dots are definitely faster overall - CO often outperforms Limited despite the Minor scoring disadvantage, mainly due to faster acquisition and transition speeds. But I've also seen good CO shooters sometimes get hung up on due to not finding their dot. It's often minimal, but still noticeable, and mostly occurs in awkward shooting positions (low ports, hard leans), but also when shooting into the sun and especially have noticed it in weak hand only.

I guess my point is that in a civilian CCW context, the pros/cons of a red dot are more mixed, similar to how the advantages of a WML are less (as you can only draw on an already known threat). In a civilian CCW circumstance, you probably won't be able to choose your body positioning, it'll most likely be 1, at most 2 attackers, and it'll be within 7 yards. Red dot advantages are still there, but just less significant, and are balanced by an increased risk of not finding the dot due to the likelihood you'll be drawing from an awkward position. Not saying that carrying with a RDS is a bad thing, by any means, but in my cost-benefit analysis I didn't find it compelling enough to do when added with other considerations, such as the slightly increased printing, having to manage dot brightness during the day, etc. It's the same reason I wouldn't carry a WML on my CCW - just not worth the extra bulk.

However for other situations like HD, LEO/MIL you often will have increased distances, time, "standard" index, and potential for more threats, so I do feel it's much more worth it. As an FYI, my home defense P320 has both a red dot and WML. I'm also by no means a boomer (despite shooting SS haha), actually am squarely in the middle of the millennial generation

[johncage]

optics are too bulky to be used for something other than penis carry

[Dennis]

I went to Bass Pro and Sportsman Warehouse today to look at them. Bass Pro didn't have much in stock, and the gentleman behind the counter wasn't very knowledgeable about them. He seemed more interested in talking than anything else. Sportsman's had some Holosun's but again, no help from behind the counter. I'd like to see a Trijicon, aimpoint and leupold before deciding. I now realize it's going to be difficult to actually hold them in my hands and look through them.

[whan]

I went to Bass Pro and Sportsman Warehouse today to look at them. Bass Pro didn't have much in stock, and the gentleman behind the counter wasn't very knowledgeable about them. He seemed more interested in talking than anything else. Sportsman's had some Holosun's but again, no help from behind the counter. I'd like to see a Trijicon, aimpoint and leupold before deciding. I now realize it's going to be difficult to actually hold them in my hands and look through them.

My perspective on the options you listed:

- Trijicon RMR: The original, and probably most common pistol red dot. Probably the most durable red dot, given it's Concave design. Multiple years of battery life (so can change once per year for peace of mind) - recommend getting the non auto adjusting brightness model, since auto adjustment sometimes doesn't work that well. Glass quality is pretty poor, probably the worst of all pistol red dots - very tinted, small window, with distortion. If you do get one, make sure to get the Type 2, instead of the Type 1. Type 1s sometimes had trouble with the battery not making full contact and the dot disappearing when the slide cycles. That's because the Type 1 wasn't designed initially for a pistol red dot, and rather for Acog piggyback. Of course, still a solid option because of best in class durability and battery life, but IMO has been outclassed by competitors in terms of features. RMR has no circle dot reticle options, and you have to remove the entire dot from the gun to change the battery

- Trijicon SRO: Based off the RMR design, much bigger window and better glass, but significantly reduced durability. Geared mostly to competition guns given size. Because the glass is round, it will shatter much easily if dropped. Great competition optic as its very reliable (can handle tens of thousands of rounds), but not CCW because of durability

- Trijicon RMRcc: Thinner version of RMR meant for single stack guns

- Leupold Deltapoint: Don't bother. Battery life on these is very short, a span of a few months. Pretty fragile as well, a lot of USPSA shooters have gone through multiple dots with the internal circuitry failing. Glass is good as expected, but this one is pretty obsolete

- Aimpoint ACRO: Has aimpoint durability, on par with RMR at least, and key thing is it's got an enclosed emitter which means debris and water won't block it from functioning properly (note open emitters are waterproof, just that debris and water might obscure the emitter). I have not personally looked through the ACRO, think glass quality is ok, but is 2 panes of glass so probably not as good as a good open emitter. Glass size is just average too. You need to look for the P2 version that recently released for retail sale, as the P1 had very short battery life as well, only a few months. P2 finally has battery life on par with an RMR. Batteries can be changed without removing optics

- Holosuns: First thing out the way, yes these are Chinese made. That said the quality is very good on these, and durability is high, 90% of the RMR. Sometimes QC can be a bit worse vs. Aimpoint/Trijicon, but again usually pretty good, and I've heard customer service is pretty good as far as returns. Glass quality is usually pretty good. The key thing with Holosun is that they're by far the most innovative brand for pistol red dots. They have a ton of models with different sizes, materials (alum vs titanium), open and closed emitters. Battery life is multiple years, so again no issues there. Yet most models also have shake awake and solar backup as well. Batteries can be changed without removing optics. Have multiple reticle options, including circle dots. Some of the newest models have gamechanging innovation, including a battery-less, solar, autoadjusting dot that actually seems to work really well, or dots that are very slim under the window, which allows usage of standard iron sights. The value proposition on holosun is also fantastic, much cheaper than trijicon and aimpoint. IMO for anything short of heavy MIL/LEO issued use, they're the best choice. The features and innovations are most relevant for civilian applications

- Sig Optics: Kind of similar to Holosun actually, believe most are made in China, but is a US brand. So generally better value than aimpoint and trijicon due to this, but also like Holosun QC can be a bit below, but generally still good. Glass quality of Sig optics is probably close to the top. Reliability has been good, but durability has only been OK for most models. Romeo1pro has a basic shroud you can add, so decent durability but not on par with RMR. Romeo3 max and XL are a SRO competitors, geared towards competition with good reliability and just adequate durability. They're just released the Romeo 2, which is a modular dot that actually is much more durable since you can add a full shroud to make it more durable, or even closed emitter.

Other consideration is mounting footprint. For full sized dots / slides, the most common is the RMR footprint, which fits RMR, SRO, and full sized holosuns. Followed by the Leupold Deltapoint footprint, which fits that, and all Sig optics (except romeo 3max/XL I think). Acro footprint is proprietary.

For slim dots, most common is Shield RMSc footprint which fits holosun and sigs. Trijicon RMRcc is proprietary

[Dennis]

Thanks for the detailed perspective. It's nice to have an experienced opinion to help. They're difficult to compare when you can't look at them side by side.

My perspective on the options you listed:

- Trijicon RMR: The original, and probably most common pistol red dot. Probably the most durable red dot, given it's Concave design. Multiple years of battery life (so can change once per year for peace of mind) - recommend getting the non auto adjusting brightness model, since auto adjustment sometimes doesn't work that well. Glass quality is pretty poor, probably the worst of all pistol red dots - very tinted, small window, with distortion. If you do get one, make sure to get the Type 2, instead of the Type 1. Type 1s sometimes had trouble with the battery not making full contact and the dot disappearing when the slide cycles. That's because the Type 1 wasn't designed initially for a pistol red dot, and rather for Acog piggyback. Of course, still a solid option because of best in class durability and battery life, but IMO has been outclassed by competitors in terms of features. RMR has no circle dot reticle options, and you have to remove the entire dot from the gun to change the battery

- Trijicon SRO: Based off the RMR design, much bigger window and better glass, but significantly reduced durability. Geared mostly to competition guns given size. Because the glass is round, it will shatter much easily if dropped. Great competition optic as its very reliable (can handle tens of thousands of rounds), but not CCW because of durability

- Trijicon RMRcc: Thinner version of RMR meant for single stack guns

- Leupold Deltapoint: Don't bother. Battery life on these is very short, a span of a few months. Pretty fragile as well, a lot of USPSA shooters have gone through multiple dots with the internal circuitry failing. Glass is good as expected, but this one is pretty obsolete

- Aimpoint ACRO: Has aimpoint durability, on par with RMR at least, and key thing is it's got an enclosed emitter which means debris and water won't block it from functioning properly (note open emitters are waterproof, just that debris and water might obscure the emitter). I have not personally looked through the ACRO, think glass quality is ok, but is 2 panes of glass so probably not as good as a good open emitter. Glass size is just average too. You need to look for the P2 version that recently released for retail sale, as the P1 had very short battery life as well, only a few months. P2 finally has battery life on par with an RMR. Batteries can be changed without removing optics

- Holosuns: First thing out the way, yes these are Chinese made. That said the quality is very good on these, and durability is high, 90% of the RMR. Sometimes QC can be a bit worse vs. Aimpoint/Trijicon, but again usually pretty good, and I've heard customer service is pretty good as far as returns. Glass quality is usually pretty good. The key thing with Holosun is that they're by far the most innovative brand for pistol red dots. They have a ton of models with different sizes, materials (alum vs titanium), open and closed emitters. Battery life is multiple years, so again no issues there. Yet most models also have shake awake and solar backup as well. Batteries can be changed without removing optics. Have multiple reticle options, including circle dots. Some of the newest models have gamechanging innovation, including a battery-less, solar, autoadjusting dot that actually seems to work really well, or dots that are very slim under the window, which allows usage of standard iron sights. The value proposition on holosun is also fantastic, much cheaper than trijicon and aimpoint. IMO for anything short of heavy MIL/LEO issued use, they're the best choice. The features and innovations are most relevant for civilian applications

- Sig Optics: Kind of similar to Holosun actually, believe most are made in China, but is a US brand. So generally better value than aimpoint and trijicon due to this, but also like Holosun QC can be a bit below, but generally still good. Glass quality of Sig optics is probably close to the top. Reliability has been good, but durability has only been OK for most models. Romeo1pro has a basic shroud you can add, so decent durability but not on par with RMR. Romeo3 max and XL are a SRO competitors, geared towards competition with good reliability and just adequate durability. They're just released the Romeo 2, which is a modular dot that actually is much more durable since you can add a full shroud to make it more durable, or even closed emitter.

Other consideration is mounting footprint. For full sized dots / slides, the most common is the RMR footprint, which fits RMR, SRO, and full sized holosuns. Followed by the Leupold Deltapoint footprint, which fits that, and all Sig optics (except romeo 3max/XL I think). Acro footprint is proprietary.

For slim dots, most common is Shield RMSc footprint which fits holosun and sigs. Trijicon RMRcc is proprietary

[skeeter149]

Sorry to break topic but anyone have experience with the riton rds. Arizona company made in China. Had a long chat with the guy on phone. Seems like good company. Veteran owned. Looking good but seeing if yall had any experience

[tawadc95]

[micro911]

I was never a optics person. But, I just got a hold of a SIG P226 Legion with Romeo 1. Maybe I should try it to see if I like it.

[vipertom1970]

Optic with iron sights as a back up is a must for my CCW.

[TrailerparkTrash]

I guess us old schoolers still believe that good old iron or Trijicon sights are the best and least obtrusive for a ccw gun.

[DJD100]

Night Sights and Laser on the sub-compact, Red Dot and Laser/Light on home defense/target full-size.

[DJD100]

Trijicon Night sights and LaserMax Laser here.

[hwarang]

I’ve got a Holosun 507C installed to co-witness with suppressor height iron sights on my G17. This, in my opinion (optic + irons co-witnessing) is the ideal set up for any defensive handgun. Battery goes down (which it shouldn’t since you’re routinely replacing them, right?), no problem your irons are right there.

For those concerned about reticle legibility/moisture/water in the emitter, there are number of closed emitter optics that make this a non-issue. Been eyeing the EPS line by Holosun myself.