Pepper spray/less lethal while CCWing

[RANGER295]

A LEO acquaintance of mine always carries pepper spray any time he is carrying a firearm on or off the job. His reasoning is that if he has to shoot a threat and someone tries to make the case that he shot them because he had no other tools available to him but if he had he could have used a less lethal option and it would have done the job, he can say that he had a less lethal option and decided it was not the right tool for the job. (sorry that is kind of a run-on)

What do you guys think? Is carrying pepper spray or something like that while carrying a weapon a good idea so you can say you had it but it would not have stopped the threat to your life? Or, is this just arm chair lawyering based on something some blow hard instructor said some where? I personally believe a clean shoot is a clean shoot and having pepper spray is not going to do much to affect your outcome one way or the other.

[rlewpolar]

[RANGER295]

You make some good points which make more sense from a practical standpoint then what my acquaintance said. I may get some pepper spray for the exact reasons you mentioned regardless of the other reasoning. I need to do some more research on the legality of when you can and cannot use pepper spray in California. For example in your example where the guy is puffing his chest at you but has not physically made a move to touch you, would it be legally justifiable?

One of the problems with carrying a weapon is the fact that time you go hands-on with someone it is a potential lethal situation because there is a possibility of them getting control of your weapon even if you did not draw it. Being able to de-escalate a potentially hostile situation and gain yourself physical distance without drawing your actual weapon or going hands-on through the use of a lesser force is an attractive proposition.

[Paladin]

I bet George Zimmerman regrets not also EDCing pepper spray….

[AlienHobo]

I carry pepper spray for exactly this reason. ^^^^^^

[seaweedsoyboy]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[neuron]

I carry pepper spray along with my firearm simply because I can think of a million scenarios where pepper spray would take care of a problem without having to use deadly force...

Even a simple case of assault (the legal definition) where a harm is imminent but no battery has yet taken place (like some guy is one inch from your face with his chest puffed out and threatening you) would be a good use of pepper spray. Use your gun in that scenario and things get more dicey for you legally....

I guess so but let me play the Devil's advocate and point out that blasting the puffed out chest guy with pepper spray might just agitate him further and really force you to use your gun. Just saying...and maybe so would a prosecuting attorney...

[rlewpolar]

Pepper spray/less lethal while CCWing

I guess so but let me play the Devil's advocate and point out that blasting the puffed out chest guy with pepper spray might just agitate him further and really force you to use your gun. Just saying...and maybe so would a prosecuting attorney...

[mk2dave]

I guess so but let me play the Devil's advocate and point out that blasting the puffed out chest guy with pepper spray might just agitate him further and really force you to use your gun. Just saying...and maybe so would a prosecuting attorney...

It all comes down to options for me. If someone sprayed with pepper spray is aggravated further, then it would seem to show this was the intent the whole time.

I like the idea of being able to use a non-lethal option if confronted with a situation that hasn't escalated to a "death or grave bodily harm" level. I'm also a huge fan of not having the non-lethal as my only option in case the situation changes.

[SharedShots]

Get together with a buddy.

Have them stand the distance away from you at which the pepper spray would be most likely to be effective. You are armed with pepper spray and one of those plastic trainer Glocks (or similar).

Tell your buddy you'll give him $1000 if you can reach you when you pull out your canister of spray and before you can drop that canister and draw your gun, get on target and simulate a good hit. Not pretend monopoly money, cold hard cash.

You will pull your canister when he takes one step toward you.

Do you think you'll keep your $1000 or will he retreat?

Now imagine the BG who's real intent is to kill you. Initially the threat is something you believe can be handled with pepper spray. It turns out not to be that.

Do you really believe that you are going to be able identify the spray didn't work, pull out your canister, spray, drop the canister and then draw before someone BG intent on getting to you isn't going to do just that?

It's one thing to say why you carry spray but another to practice what you think will happen and find out what will really happen.

That little teaching moment is with you knowing what is coming. Now think past some idea that you are going to engage someone with pepper spray because of some notion that using spray in some sort of escalation routine makes any sense at all.

You'll lose the $1000. Then, see if you want to try it again because you might be faster next time.

You aren't the police. You aren't looking for the BG, they are looking for you. There is no backup, there is no duty to use spray first, you're making this stuff up without ever trying to see if it works as you think it will.

I've brought this up every time someone starts with the spray idea. To date, no one has gone out and tried to see if it all works the way they think it does and reported back on the results.

If you think that spray is the way to go then why not put up the $1000 to see if it really works? The BGs are willing to kill you for the change in your pocket, you're willing to risk your life so that you can demonstrate in some imaginary defense that you escalated the use of force and that for some reason anyone is going to care and maybe think better of you? They aren't. You either were justified in using your gun or you weren't.


OP: Make the best with your cop buddy except you be the BG. It's an easy way to get $1000 in cold hard cash.
.

[rlewpolar]

Pepper spray/less lethal while CCWing

Get together with a buddy.

Have them stand the distance away from you at which the pepper spray would be most likely to be effective. You are armed with pepper spray and one of those plastic trainer Glocks (or similar).

Tell your buddy you'll give him $1000 if you can reach you when you pull out your canister of spray and before you can drop that canister and draw your gun, get on target and simulate a good hit. Not pretend monopoly money, cold hard cash.

You will pull your canister when he takes one step toward you.

Do you think you'll keep your $1000 or will he retreat?

Now imagine the BG who's real intent is to kill you. Initially the threat is something you believe can be handled with pepper spray. It turns out not to be that.

Do you really believe that you are going to be able identify the spray didn't work, pull out your canister, spray, drop the canister and then draw before someone BG intent on getting to you isn't going to do just that?

It's one thing to say why you carry spray but another to practice what you think will happen and find out what will really happen.

That little teaching moment is with you knowing what is coming. Now think past some idea that you are going to engage someone with pepper spray because of some notion that using spray in some sort of escalation routine makes any sense at all.

You'll lose the $1000. Then, see if you want to try it again because you might be faster next time.

You aren't the police. You aren't looking for the BG, they are looking for you. There is no backup, there is no duty to use spray first, you're making this stuff up without ever trying to see if it works as you think it will.

I've brought this up every time someone starts with the spray idea. To date, no one has gone out and tried to see if it all works the way they think it does and reported back on the results.

If you think that spray is the way to go then why not put up the $1000 to see if it really works? The BGs are willing to kill you for the change in your pocket, you're willing to risk your life so that you can demonstrate in some imaginary defense that you escalated the use of force and that for some reason anyone is going to care and maybe think better of you? They aren't. You either were justified in using your gun or you weren't.



.

[Librarian]

I carry - fox 5.3 - but in a pocket; just no belt space for a pepper spray holder. (There comes a time where the 'Bat belt' configuration just does not work.) That makes it hard to draw, and I haven't figured that out.

Like most self-defense actions, 'get off the X!'. Do not spray and stand around to see how it works.

Years ago there was a 'Festival by the Lake' at Lake Merritt in Oakland; I saw TV video of rowdy participants being dispersed by LE using pepper spray. Most of the people sprayed just keep walking out of the area, without obvious reaction to the spray. Evidently some people (perhaps in some condition of inebriation/anger) are not so sensitive to pepper spray.

But some people are not so sensitive to bullets, either, at least for a little while.

[SharedShots]

It doesn't assume anything other than the time it takes you to use the spray and hoping.

If the shoot is bad it's bad, what does that have to do with spray?

Once you are in a physical fight, pepper spray is not the answer, someone already has their hands on you. You're going to pull out some spray? The BG is in physical contact with you, you need to make sure he isn't getting your gun.

A menacing can of pepper spray? If it doesn't work you wasted valuable seconds. We've all heard the saying "when seconds count the police are only minutes away"

When seconds count, pepper spray isn't the answer either.

Like I said, try the scenario I presented. It's easy to do but I doubt anyone who carries spray will try it. What do you have to lose except finding out what you believed to work doesn't.

In the end, it's your life to risk. Not even bothering to try the test I presented says quite a bit. Don't be afraid to find out, what do you have to lose?

[ezaircon4jc]

One must also be cognizant of the wind. Don't want to have the spray come back!

[JonChimpo]