Why calling women "women" is important

[BonnieB]

Folks, this thread is in the Women's Forum. For those of you OT fans who'd like to pile on, please don't. We don't like it and we push back. However, civil discussion is always welcome.

We have another recent thread in the Women's Forum, giving valuable information on a firearms training for women that is upcoming. I inadvertently de-railed that thread by commenting on the used of the phrase "female shooters". Because of that derailment (sorry, OP) and because of my repeated snarkiness on the use of the phrase 'female shooter', I've decided to make a separate thread, to lay out my position and my I'm so serious about it.

Specifically, when someone in the Women's Forum refers to us as 'females', I consistently snark back "Female WHAT's? Humans? They are called Women".

The reason for choosing a particular set of language is that language shapes thoughts and perceptions. What we call things reflects how we think of them. And how we think of them governs how we treat them. If we use insulting words like Polock, Kike, Guinea, Gook etc., we are thinking of those people as outsiders, less than us, possibly even an enemy. (The names I"m using are purposefully old and out of style. I'm trying to be the least offensive to our members as possible.)

When we refer to adult women as females, girls, gals, chicks, b*****es, honeys, etc, we are assigning them less than fully human, less than fully equal status. (There are many horrendous terms that men use for women that I won't even repeat here, but you know what they are). You may not believe it, but language experts agree on it, always, that language shapes thought and behavior. (I'll produce links if necessary). Some, perhaps many, women don't mind these terms, that's their privilege, but I personally think it's damaging over the long term, to them, their daughters and all of us.

Arbitrarily, I think a woman under 18 can be legitimately be called a girl. But that's completely arbitrary on my part, because I have trouble with the concept "six year old woman". Sue me.

Then there's the term 'lady'. I accept that and love it when someone calls me a lady, because it's an earned term, like Sergeant. Not every woman is a lady, we EARN that by our behavior, reputation and manners. So it's not just the same as 'woman'. I think when used intelligently, "b****h" is also a valid, earned term, by means of behavior, reputation and manners. It's the opposite of "lady". If it isn't an earned term, then it's an intentional insult.

It's very important to pay attention to what we call people. It not only shapes our thoughts, it creates a habit of thought that we may not really believe in.

If we consistently refer to adult humans as "men" or "women", we groove in a way of thought that is respectful, dignified and implies equal status. Some people really resist the word "woman". I'm not sure why, they don't seem to have any trouble saying "man". In fact calling him a "man" is usually taken as a compliment.

"Woman" is not a dirty word, it's a respectful, dignified word and I don't think anyone will be insulted by it.

And that's why I insist.

[CSACANNONEER]

Bonnie,

I understand what you are saying. I know I've been guilty of saying "female shooters" many times on purpose because, I do not want to leave out those females who have yet to reach womanhood. So, I'm sorry if I've ever offended you but, I'll continue to use phases which do not discriminate in any way including age. After all, when we talk about shooting or many other topics, we don't want to leave out the children (female or male) since, they are our future and the future of the shooting sports in particular. Also, I don't want to offend those adult female shooters who prefer to not be seen as "women" due to their sexual orientation.

I don't think "female" or "male" are derogatory at all. Both are factual descriptions of gender. Do you get upset when filling out forms at your doctors' offices which ask you to check "male" or "female"?

Again, I'll apologize if I've ever offended you. If you have a good descriptive word that would include all female shooters, including young ones, please let me know and I'll try my best to use it.

BTW, this is NOT the "women's forum" It is the "ladies forum" and I agree that "ladies" is a term that is earned.

[BonnieB]

I call them "women and girls", actually. Just as you would say "men and boys". Semantically, I think you are wrong and drawing a false distinction about discrimination. But that's my opinion.

It's not important whether you have offended me or not. What's important is how you are shaping the thought processes of the men and boys around you, and especially your sons, if you have any.

I don't flinch at my doctor's office saying 'female'. They're interested in my biology and whether I need a mammogram, not my capabilities.

Enlighten me, which women don't want to be called "women" because of their sexual orientation? If you're thinking what I think you're thinking, I dare you to say it openly.

I've asked for this forum to be renamed several times, as a C3 and as a member. So have all the other CGN women C3's. No go. But I still try and always will. No one else seems to mind...

[NYT]

we should create a poll on this topic. i am at lunch with my girlfriend reading your post and she disagrees. she is however a youngish (31), professional type (attorney) who doesnt really enjoy being called "woman" as it implies in her opinion, an old and stuffy individual. girl, gal, chick, etc are all perfectly ok to her in the proper context.

to these women as well:

http://chicksontheright.com/

bonnie, would you be opposed to providing your age or would it in your opinion be rude of me to ask? i am 34.

[CSACANNONEER]

I call them "women and girls", actually. Just as you would say "men and boys". Semantically, I think you are wrong and drawing a false distinction about discrimination. But that's my opinion.

It's not important whether you have offended me or not. What's important is how you are shaping the thought processes of the men and boys around you, and especially your sons, if you have any.

I don't flinch at my doctor's office saying 'female'. They're interested in my biology and whether I need a mammogram, not my capabilities.

Enlighten me, which women don't want to be called "women" because of their sexual orientation? If you're thinking what I think you're thinking, I dare you to say it openly.

I've asked for this forum to be renamed several times, as a C3 and as a member. So have all the other CGN women C3's. No go. But I still try and always will. No one else seems to mind...

OK, I'm lazy and prefer typing "female" over "women and girls". Besides, I say "male shooters" instead of "men shooters" too. I have yet to hear any man complain about that.

OK, you dared me......I'm saying "some" but not all might not like to be called women if they are either pre-op transgendered or if they are more masculine lesbians. I have one young friend who feels that way. Also, I know at least one well respected (at least by me) member here who is male but identifies himself as a "woman" but not as a "female" (yet).

[NYT]

OK, I'm lazy and prefer typing "female" over "women and girls". Besides, I say "male shooters" instead of "men shooters" too. I have yet to hear any man complain about that.

OK, you dared me......I'm saying "some" but not all might not like to be called women if they are either pre-op transgendered or if they are more masculine lesbians. I have one young friend who feels that way. Also, I know at least one well respected (at least by me) member here who is male but identifies himself as a "woman" but not as a "female" (yet).

yup, i thought the same thing when you made your post. transgenders and females who have yet to make the full transition.

[Gryff]

I understand what the OP is asking, but I feel that this is one of those areas where someone is too concerned about titles/labels.

If you were saying chick, honey, or even girl, I would instantly have sympathy with your argument. Most of those terms are male-created, and were generally done so with the intent to reduce the woman into an object rather than allowing them to be considered as an individual.

But as for "female" versus "woman", I think you are making an argument based on personal biases rather than true sociological distinctions. Female is not a demeaning term in American society. It is simply a statement of biological condition, with the assumption that the object of the statement is a human being. I do not agree that this assumption of species creates any harm to the object of the statement, nor does it objectify the person any more than the use of "woman" would. Additionally, it is not even as controversial as "woman" since the etymological root of the word is Latin and not derived from the Latin word for male. Using the term "female shooter" in front of my son does not lessen his opinion of women any more than the term "woman shooter." Both are biologically accurate since their is no possibility that he might confuse the species of the shooter.

There is an issue with "shoots like a girl," "throws like a girl," "screams like a girl," etc. but it's obvious that the specific word choice for the female human is anywhere near as important as the fundamentally insulting gender message being presented.

Having studied journalism in college, I do find that woman and female are not fully interchangeable in my writing style. Woman provides a more personal adjective, and female a more general one. But I wouldn't lose sleep using them synonymously to avoid word repetition in neighboring sentences. I would trust my readers to know that the term "female Wimbledon champion" referred to a human being rather than a dolphin.

So, while I respect that a person has a right to have personal preference for one word over another, I cannot subscribe to your assertion that "female" is in any way demeaning or belittling over "woman." It has far more to do with what else is being said in the message than it does that the person used female. To paraphrase a public service commercial I once saw, do I look at Julie Golob as a "shooter" or as a "female shooter"? If I substitute the term "woman" for "female," it doesn't change the basic point of the thought.

[movie zombie]

for the record: I did at the time this forum was started by Mr K ask that it NOT be named Ladies but Mr K has/had his own thoughts on the matter and since it is in fact his website he so named it Ladies Forum.....

I refer to any young female ages 10-18 as a young woman.
under 10 I say female child.....child encompasses both the male and female genders. talking about a young male ages 10-18 I refer to him as a young man. otherwise, I refer to him as a male child. again, child encompasses both genders and if I need to be succinct re which child I do use the gender to differentiate.

imo, referring to women as females is derogatory. it says that all that is important is my gender. it reminds me of the language used to keep women from voting, taking certain jobs, etc. so, yes, in my mind the word female is used subconsciously by many in much the same way as those that deny prejudice but their language says otherwise. after all, females can only do certain things because they are a victim of their biology. women, however, are fully actualized humans and must be dealt with as adults and not inferiors.

language is indeed important. it says a lot about a society and about the speaker. anyone that has studied anything about the women's suffrage movement can appreciate why it is the WOMENS right to vote and not the FEMALE right to vote.

sorry for not being as coherent or organized with my thoughts/writing as BonnieB in her first post starting this thread...... but like BonnieB when filling out a medical form for my dr the form is asking for info to address biological issues and usually is spelled out as "female" and "male"..............

[BuckeyeResearcher]

for the record: I did at the time this forum was started by Mr K ask that it NOT be named Ladies but Mr K has/had his own thoughts on the matter and since it is in fact his website he so named it Ladies Forum.....

Your post reminded me that in autocross there are "open classes" and "ladies classes" (as opposed to "women's" or "female" classes)

[Off the Roster]

This is definitely a little bit of black, a little bit of white, and a whole lotta grey.

For sports activities I'll go with "Womens" - if it's good enough for the Olympics it's good enough for me.

"Female" is for medically based differentiation, any form involving a gender box, and for suspect identification.

"Ladies" is for restroom facilities and nights with discount drinks.

I do have to admit that on forms demanding one's ethnicity followed by a roster of 20 or so choices, I go straight to the fill-in-the blank option and write in "white chick".

[sdkevin]

.. a bit more clarification on my part..

I use Girls most of the time because if imparts a cute youthfulness, we all know their age is a big secret. When I have one, it says my Girl, and my girl is a bit of a tomboy - she knows how to handle a firearm/start a campfire/cooks better than 85% of the girls/ain't scart of a lawnmower and easily pull a fith-wheel.

Ladies works when addressing a group of who-knows-what or if you want to kiss butt or more of and urban high maint pain in the rump/would despise grilling a burger/her shoe collection cost more than your armory/spends way too much $$$ on treatments and still looks iffy.

Women is reserved for groups that are even more confused, like the guy down the street.

[BonnieB]

For the record, I believe that trans-gendered people, pre-op or not, get to define how they are addressed and described. It's their privilege and I support them entirely.

I have never met a lesbian who denied being a woman. And I certainly would not suggest that she wasn't a woman. I'm not that brave.

Someone asked my age and I will proudly state that I am a 'chic granny type' in my 60's. That makes me part of the generation who are the legitimate heirs of the Women's Suffrage Movement and created modern equality for women in this country. Which is still in progress. Full equality especially in the workplace and a woman's right to control her body has not yet arrived. But I am still trying.

[BonnieB]

Your post reminded me that in autocross there are "open classes" and "ladies classes" (as opposed to "women's" or "female" classes)

Buckeye, are the "open" autocross classes open to women? Or is "open" code for "men" ? I don't know anything at all about autocross, but why are there "ladies classes". Is it a different level of competition?

(For those who don't know, Buckeye is a legitimate academic scholar, interested in gender roles and women entering traditionally men's sports and activities).

[Garv]

Female/Woman, I have never thought of either of them as offensive when used politely.
My wife of 30+ years says she has no problem here either.

Need some more XX genotypes to chime in.
(I hope that is not offensive, being neutral for mild humor only.)

[kaligaran]

Using terms like b*****es, honeys etc is obviously derogatory.

As a 'woman', I never considered the use of 'female' as an adjective as it was in that thread/class to be negative. And I still don't.

Using female as a noun sounds odd to me but still doesn't seem 'less than human'.

I know many of you disagree with me. I just don't see the term female as a negative and honestly it's really strange/intriguing to me that it's a big deal.

I know many of you are older than I am, maybe that's the reason it doesn't phase me?

I guess I'm just here to say I disagree that the term female as an adjective is derogatory or less than human.

I am female and proud of it.