California import procedure.

[Bigyates]

Some out of state FFL's make a big deal of sending firearms into CA and decline to do so. What exactly are they required to do and are there costs involved?

[halifax]

No cost. Sign up for a CA website that verifies the receiving FFL is legit.


https://webapps.doj.ca.gov/cflc/login.do?dispatch=logoff

[audiophil2]

No cost.

If you owned a business you would know that is not true at all. While there is no cost to sign up for the CFLC program it costs me time to do the extra paperwork involved for CA sales. Let's compare a sale to Florida with a sale to California. I only use Florida because it is the second most popular state I ship guns to.

Florida
Buyer pays me for gun and provides his FL FFLs name and phone number.
I call FL FFL and get copy of his license via email or fax within 10 minutes to 2 days. Uses about 5 minutes of my time.
I check FL FFL on ATF EZ Check site. It is legit. 2 minutes used.
I print my invoice, staple a pre-printed copy of my FFL and place them in gun box. 3 minutes.
Package and ship gun. 5-20 minutes depending on gun.

It takes me about 20 minutes on average to ship a gun to FL and never deal with that transaction again

California
Buyer wants one of my guns. I have to spend 3 minutes to 2 days trying to figure out how to ship it legally. If it is legally possible...
Buyer pays me for gun and provides CA FFL name and phone number.
I call CA FFL and get copy of his license via email or fax. Uses 5 minutes of my time.
FFL does not include CFD number on FFL or anywhere on fax or email. I call again and have to ask for CFD. 5 minutes.
I use ATF EX CHeck site. 2 minutes
I log onto CFLC site and get shipper authorization and make 2 printouts. 5 minutes and cost of 2 additional pieces of paper, ink, and electricity.
I prep the gun for shipping. This could be 5 minutes for a pre-Ca legal gun or up to 20 minutes for CA legal conversions. Over 20 minutes and I charge labor so I can't count it.
Triple check all paperwork CA FFL needs is in the box so gun does not get bounced back. Double check gun is CA legal so gun does not get bounced back. 10 minutes.
Package and ship gun. 5-15 minutes.
Pray CA FFL accepts gun. 30 seconds.
Gun arrives at CA FFL. 1 out of 100 guns are labeled as CA illegal even though they are compliant by CA FFL. CA FFL just does not understand law. Gun gets shipped back. Customer complains. I get yelled at by FFL. I ship same exact gun without any changes to CA FFL I prefer to use and gun is transferred without issue. Multiple emails and phone calls involved to several FFLs and customer. About 2 hours of wasted time I can't charge for even tough I told customer the FFL he wanted to use most likely will not accept gun.

In a perfect transaction I can have a CA on roster/pre-made compliant gun out of my life in 35 minutes, sometimes 20 if it is a common gun and I can skip the research and double checking. I have had CA guns take up hours of my time spread over several days because of issues inside CA. That time is not "no cost".

[halifax]

Wow. The out-of-state dealers I deal with don't seem to have near as much trouble as you do. Or maybe you're embellishing it a bit to make a point.

[Bigyates]

I can understand some confusion on rostered handguns or semi-auto rifles. But recently I was refused on a single action Ruger and I am awaiting a decision to sell on a Remington bolt rifle. If there were extra expenses for dealing with CA bureaucracy I would be willing to pay.
I just wanted to understand exactly what the FFLs were subjected to and complaining about. Seems to be a pretty straightforward process.

[ugimports]

If you owned a business you would know that is not true at all. While there is no cost to sign up for the CFLC program it costs me time to do the extra paperwork involved for CA sales. Let's compare a sale to Florida with a sale to California. I only use Florida because it is the second most popular state I ship guns to.

Florida
Buyer pays me for gun and provides his FL FFLs name and phone number.
I call FL FFL and get copy of his license via email or fax within 10 minutes to 2 days. Uses about 5 minutes of my time.
I check FL FFL on ATF EZ Check site. It is legit. 2 minutes used.
I print my invoice, staple a pre-printed copy of my FFL and place them in gun box. 3 minutes.
Package and ship gun. 5-20 minutes depending on gun.

It takes me about 20 minutes on average to ship a gun to FL and never deal with that transaction again

California
Buyer wants one of my guns. I have to spend 3 minutes to 2 days trying to figure out how to ship it legally. If it is legally possible...
Buyer pays me for gun and provides CA FFL name and phone number.
I call CA FFL and get copy of his license via email or fax. Uses 5 minutes of my time.
FFL does not include CFD number on FFL or anywhere on fax or email. I call again and have to ask for CFD. 5 minutes.
I use ATF EX CHeck site. 2 minutes
I log onto CFLC site and get shipper authorization and make 2 printouts. 5 minutes and cost of 2 additional pieces of paper, ink, and electricity.
I prep the gun for shipping. This could be 5 minutes for a pre-Ca legal gun or up to 20 minutes for CA legal conversions. Over 20 minutes and I charge labor so I can't count it.
Triple check all paperwork CA FFL needs is in the box so gun does not get bounced back. Double check gun is CA legal so gun does not get bounced back. 10 minutes.
Package and ship gun. 5-15 minutes.
Pray CA FFL accepts gun. 30 seconds.
Gun arrives at CA FFL. 1 out of 100 guns are labeled as CA illegal even though they are compliant by CA FFL. CA FFL just does not understand law. Gun gets shipped back. Customer complains. I get yelled at by FFL. I ship same exact gun without any changes to CA FFL I prefer to use and gun is transferred without issue. Multiple emails and phone calls involved to several FFLs and customer. About 2 hours of wasted time I can't charge for even tough I told customer the FFL he wanted to use most likely will not accept gun.

In a perfect transaction I can have a CA on roster/pre-made compliant gun out of my life in 35 minutes, sometimes 20 if it is a common gun and I can skip the research and double checking. I have had CA guns take up hours of my time spread over several days because of issues inside CA. That time is not "no cost".

I think you can solve most of these financially by telling CA customers that don't use your preferred dealers that there are no refunds. If their dealer rejects they lose the cost of the firearm which you get back and re-sell at 100% profit.

That would cut down on all the extra time. Likewise, you are in no way liable if you ship a gun that is illegal in CA. The CA dealer is. If during your normal interaction of gettting the FFL you mention "I am about to ship you a Ruger XYZ Fully Auto Mini 14" and the receiving dealer says "ok"... you should be off the hook from the buyer and the receving FFL if they give you grief.

again shouldn't require much extra of your time if you make it clear to the customers you are dealing with that if they don't follow your process/preferred dealers that they deal with the consequences and not you..

Then yo don't have to spend extra time looking at the roster and it's really the incremental 5 mins of time for the CFLC. Paper printouts aren't required (althought some like it). I frequently get CFLC numbers from distributors like Sports South that are on their packing slip. NOthing illegal about that and no extra paper wasted. THat could save you ink/paper if you just included the number on your invoice. I can't imagine those same dealers ***** and moan to Sports South, Bill Hicks, or any of the other distros that don't include the extra paper.

[Tyke8319]

I've found that a fair number of out-of-state dealers just plain don't like California nor those that live there and refuse to do business there.
On a number of occasions I have called OOSDealers and spend time schmoozing them letting them know we're all in the same boat, fighting the same war, and with the same objectives. I've turned a number to "our" side and forward the CFLC web site signup page and was able to complete the transaction. And some...not so much!!
I personally think it's worth our time and effort to educate the great unwashed..as it were.

[kemasa]

If the out of state FFL wants to do what the anti-gun people want them to do (not ship to CA), then you can use a middleman FFL to get it shipped here. It would cost a bit more, but it solves the problem.

I have found that when you point out that their refusal to ship to CA is doing exactly what the anti-gun people want, they tend to change their minds.

[audiophil2]

Wow. The out-of-state dealers I deal with don't seem to have near as much trouble as you do. Or maybe you're embellishing it a bit to make a point.

Those out of state dealers probably do not do the same volume or have multiple A&D books like I do.
Give me a list of out of state FFLs you have bought from that have books for the following:
Title 1 new/used purchases
Title 1 repairs/warranty work
Title 2 new/used purchases
Title 2 pre-86 machine guns
Title 2 repairs/warranty work
Title 2 LEA purchases

I can understand some confusion on rostered handguns or semi-auto rifles. But recently I was refused on a single action Ruger and I am awaiting a decision to sell on a Remington bolt rifle. If there were extra expenses for dealing with CA bureaucracy I would be willing to pay.
I just wanted to understand exactly what the FFLs were subjected to and complaining about. Seems to be a pretty straightforward process.

It is far from it.

I think you can solve most of these financially by telling CA customers that don't use your preferred dealers that there are no refunds. If their dealer rejects they lose the cost of the firearm which you get back and re-sell at 100% profit.
Try it and see how well that works. You own a business so you must know how easy it is to demolish most disclaimers.

That would cut down on all the extra time. Likewise, you are in no way liable if you ship a gun that is illegal in CA. The CA dealer is. If during your normal interaction of gettting the FFL you mention "I am about to ship you a Ruger XYZ Fully Auto Mini 14" and the receiving dealer says "ok"... you should be off the hook from the buyer and the receving FFL if they give you grief.

In a perfect world only. It is rare but I get CA dealers yelling at me for shipping "AW"s all the time only to flip the AR over and realize there is a bullet button installed and that he can't force more than 10 rounds into the mag. I've had CA FFLs forcefully rip blocks out of mags and call them illegal hi caps right in front of my customers. It's all about the money.

again shouldn't require much extra of your time if you make it clear to the customers you are dealing with that if they don't follow your process/preferred dealers that they deal with the consequences and not you.

I started that. It can only go so far. The fact that I am even saying anything opens me up to being blacklisted by CA FFLs. I've had FFLs refuse transfers from me even after their customer begged them only to have the same FFL start begging to buy guns from me because I get them and they don't. Before Brown signed the new SSE bill I was locked out of many parts of CA through protectionism. Once the guns were impossible to get those same FFLs crawled back asking for my guns and all of the sudden they had no problem taking out of state transfers that gave them easy money. I always redirected to FFLs that were not jerks and they lost dozens of transfers to my preferred FFLs that were sometimes blocks away.

Then yo don't have to spend extra time looking at the roster and it's really the incremental 5 mins of time for the CFLC. Paper printouts aren't required (althought some like it). I frequently get CFLC numbers from distributors like Sports South that are on their packing slip. NOthing illegal about that and no extra paper wasted. THat could save you ink/paper if you just included the number on your invoice. I can't imagine those same dealers ***** and moan to Sports South, Bill Hicks, or any of the other distros that don't include the extra paper.

Paper printouts are definitely required on this side of the border. I print everything. Maybe it's how I was taught but the FFL that taught me is used as a model for other FFLs in AZ. Phoenix ATF sends FFLs with paperwork issues to my friend and he charges them to learn how to properly record paperwork. He was also involved in fast and furious as well as the city he sells in suing to shut him down. His own lawyer told him to shut down but he fought it and not only had the city settle for his lawyer fees but he got grandfathered in permanently where no other gun shops can open in the city. They have to renew his business license even if he moves to another spot in the city.

If the out of state FFL wants to do what the anti-gun people want them to do (not ship to CA), then you can use a middleman FFL to get it shipped here. It would cost a bit more, but it solves the problem.

I have found that when you point out that their refusal to ship to CA is doing exactly what the anti-gun people want, they tend to change their minds.

I do middleman guns. In fact, I have a long list of gunbroker FFLs that refer CA buyers to me for middleman service. Maybe that is why I see more of the problem issues. I do more volume. I shipped over 500 SSE handguns to CA in the last quarter of 2014 alone and I am a small dealer. I have no advertising other than the few ads I put here in the commercial section. Most of my business is repeat customers and referrals from guys that see my guns on the range and ask where to get them. CA is my biggest client and I don't plan on it stopping. But for some guy to say it costs nothing for an FFL to ship to CA shows they are simply clueless.

[ugimports]

I don't know anyone in their right mind that would blacklist you. Any of those dealers that do are in my mind crazy. It's hard enough getting compliant stuff into the state. When there's a dealer actively trying to help out the cause I appreciate it. For what it's worth I haven't seen any sort of "protectionism" maybe because I'm a small fry too.

I agree that your time/process isn't free. Hopefully some of the feedback this thread can help provide avenues to streamline. Understand if you need extra stuff on your end to keep legal based on your process. It's the same reason those cranky guys in CA give you a hard time I suppose. At some point they got burned or the person that mentored them told them it had to be a certain way.

Fortunately, I'm new and can provide a reasonable service to my customers and am always willing to learn something new (and it happens often) from other CA as well as out of state FFLs.