Purchasing Firearms With Work/Student Visa

[Elite Armory]

We called both the CA DOJ and the ATF and have received conflicting information regarding who can and cannot purchase a firearm.

Can people here on a work visa or a student visa purchase firearms with a hunting license?

Thanks

[AR15Man]

IMHO I wouldn't conduct the transaction as this is a relatively new change by ATF and there's no case law on the subject.

Here's a few scenarios,

1)

A Foreign Visa Folder presents a valid visa to an FFL, but unbeknownst to the FFL, the Visa Holder is considered a prohibited possessor at the MOMENT his violates his

conditions of his/her immigration status. THIS CAN OCCUR BEFORE ICE MAKES AN ARREST OR THE ALIEN IS DEPORTED. There are millions of aliens, (OF ALL

NATIONALITIES) now in the U.S. beyond their authorized length of stay and/or did something to violate the visa conditions.

2)

A Foreign Visa Folder presents a valid visa to an FFL, complies with all requirements of 4473 question 12 & 30 and DROS, and legally purchases and takes possession of the firearm.

Due to the expiration and/or limited length of stay on the Visa, the Foreign Visa Folder now has to leave the U.S. If he leaves with the firearm he could potentially illegal export a firearm.

There are too many what if's verses a lot more U.S. Citizens out there to chance losing your FFL over.

Just an opinion.

[dachan]

but unbeknownst to the FFL, the Visa Holder is considered a prohibited possessor at the MOMENT

How can this be considered the fault of the FFL? That is what NICS is for.

If he leaves with the firearm he could potentially illegal export a firearm.

How can this be considered the fault of the FFL? What if someone legally buys a gun, then 10yrs later uses it to rob a bank; would that also be the fault of the FFL?

[ugimports]

Yes. That's a non immigrant alien.

[AR15Man]

How can this be considered the fault of the FFL? That is what NICS is for.



How can this be considered the fault of the FFL? What if someone legally buys a gun, then 10yrs later uses it to rob a bank; would that also be the fault of the FFL?

I agree. This is very fresh and uncharted territory and in today's climate I'd hate to be the first test case.

As previously stated; There's more U.S. Citizen customers out there than to worry about and risk your license being the first pushed into the lime light.

Have you ever heard of Industry Ops(BATFE) providing conflicting information and/or changing their interpretation of the regs at a later date?

I'd refer the Non-U.S. Citizen gun buyer to one of the larger chain-store dealers, as they'll have a larger legal department to handle issues when the auditors come a knocking.

[Condorguns]

Yes. That's a non immigrant alien.

^^^ This. I have only done one or two. I do green cards weekly, but that's different.

[ugimports]

I agree. This is very fresh and uncharted territory and in today's climate I'd hate to be the first test case.

As previously stated; There's more U.S. Citizen customers out there than to worry about and risk your license being the first pushed into the lime light.

Have you ever heard of Industry Ops(BATFE) providing conflicting information and/or changing their interpretation of the regs at a later date?

I'd refer the Non-U.S. Citizen gun buyer to one of the larger chain-store dealers, as they'll have a larger legal department to handle issues when the auditors come a knocking.

H1B and Student Visa holders still have green money.. and if they were prohibited they usually get their visa revoked and deported.., but again that's no different than selling to a US Citizen that likes about being mental or being "addicted" to mary jane. Citizenship status has no bearing on what the invidividual might do.

[ahbailey22]

I am a non-immigrant "alien" gun owner so have some experience with this. I am a Canadian on a TN visa.

I don't really think this is a grey area at all, it is all covered on the form 4473.

Question 11 l. Asks if you are a non-immigrant alien. If you answer yes to this question then you answer question 12 which asks if you fall under any of the exceptions. Those exceptions are in the instructions for question 12, a current hunting license is listed as a valid exception. The hunting licence number goes in 20c. question 15 is specific to aliens and asks for your alien number or admission number ( also called I-94 number).

I have purchased 3 firearms, including a handgun, over the last 9-10 months and none of the dealers had any issue. There were no delays or rejections etc.

Now importing my firearms from Canada is a whole other issue, it requires a FFL and those I talked to, in this area, don't seem to want to get involved in that mess.

Aron

[ugimports]

I am a non-immigrant "alien" gun owner so have some experience with this. I am a Canadian on a TN visa.

I don't really think this is a grey area at all, it is all covered on the form 4473.

Question 11 l. Asks if you are a non-immigrant alien. If you answer yes to this question then you answer question 12 which asks if you fall under any of the exceptions. Those exceptions are in the instructions for question 12, a current hunting license is listed as a valid exception. The hunting licence number goes in 20c. question 15 is specific to aliens and asks for your alien number or admission number ( also called I-94 number).

I have purchased 3 firearms, including a handgun, over the last 9-10 months and none of the dealers had any issue. There were no delays or rejections etc.

Now importing my firearms from Canada is a whole other issue, it requires a FFL and those I talked to, in this area, don't seem to want to get involved in that mess.

Aron

not sure how much you want to hassle, but these guys: http://hansohnbrothers.com/ can help with the import process. Not sure how that would work for any off roster handguns though.

[ldsnet]

I would say nope to either card due to foreign citizen export and ITAR issues. With a visa they are still foreign citizens with no intent to stay in the USA, at some point in the future, that person will have to depart and return to their home country.

What happens to the firearm you sold them? Even allowing a foreign citizen to view an item on the ITAR list could be a violation with huge fines and the whole issue of exporting a weapon to a foreign country . . . don't even want to get involved with that.

[ugimports]

I would say nope to either card due to foreign citizen export and ITAR issues. With a visa they are still foreign citizens with no intent to stay in the USA, at some point in the future, that person will have to depart and return to their home country.

What happens to the firearm you sold them? Even allowing a foreign citizen to view an item on the ITAR list could be a violation with huge fines and the whole issue of exporting a weapon to a foreign country . . . don't even want to get involved with that.

They have to get rid of it or export the firearm on their own the same way you would if you moved, say to Australia or England.

How is your scenario any different than a US citizen that drives to Canada and brings all their firearms with them?

I'm not sure how a US based FFL can violate ITAR issues in your example.

How is that different than you selling to a US citizen a non-firearm controlled ITAR part and they re-ship it to Africa or China?

Why do you think citizenship matters so much?

A non-immigrant visa does NOT mean automatically they do not intend to stay in the country. What if they are actually following the immigration laws to eventually become a US citizen? How do you know that is not going to happen? I know plenty of H1B (may not be B, but a different letter) holders that stayed that status until they got their greencards following the process.

Now, if you just have a policy to not sell to non-immigrant aliens because you don't believe they have any business using a firearm, that's fine.

No reason to spread FUD to other dealers that may not have encountered this transaction type yet.

However, if you can point to some case law that shows your fears have materialized into real prosecutions of FFLs anywhere in the US then that would be a valid concern and links to said cases, news articles, etc.. would be greatly appreciated.

[Josh3239]

Items you'll need to take a copy of:
- CA ID or DL
- Proof of Residence & HSC if its a handgun
- I 94
- Visa
- Hunting License

On the DROS you'll need to note he is not a US citizen, he is a citizen of "xyz" country and his I94 number.

On the 4473 he will need to answer question 11L in the affirmative as well as question 12 which asks if he has a special exemption as a visa holder (hunting license). Question 14 will ask his country of citizenship. I believe it is box 20C which asks in relation to question 12, what is his exemption in which you'll enter "hunting license". Thankfully you can read the explanations on the back of the 4473 if you need help.

I just did this for a gentlemen from England not too long ago. It isn't as hard as it sounds.

As to whether non-immigrant visa deserve guns, that is another discussion. The bottom line is they can.

[ke6guj]

I'm not sure how a US based FFL can violate ITAR issues in your example.

as an example, the technology in Night vision googles is so ITAR restricted that it is a crime to even let a non-citizen to look through them. with firearms and other firearms accessories, there could be some hidden ITAR restrictions that you don't know about that could be violated when selling to that non-immigrant alien. for instance, I seem to recall that .50BMG rifles were prohibited from export, could that ITAR restriction applied to domestic sales to non-immigrant aliens, I dunno?

How is that different than you selling to a US citizen a non-firearm controlled ITAR part and they re-ship it to Africa or China?

that would put the violation on the buyer, unless he told you about it and then it could fall into the co-conspirator area.

[AR15Man]

A non-immigrant visa does NOT mean automatically they do not intend to stay in the country.

Wrong, With your statement that they're "intent as Non-Immigrant is to permanently stay" in the U.S. they're immediately in violation of his/her immigration status.

Better stay with the FFL regs.

[AR15Man]

I would say nope to either card due to foreign citizen export and ITAR issues. With a visa they are still foreign citizens with no intent to stay in the USA, at some point in the future, that person will have to depart and return to their home country.

What happens to the firearm you sold them? Even allowing a foreign citizen to view an item on the ITAR list could be a violation with huge fines and the whole issue of exporting a weapon to a foreign country . . . don't even want to get involved with that.

+1 with the logic.